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have you ever looked up to the skies and

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seen something you can't explain

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or walk deep in the forest and sense

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something watching you

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do you believe in an afterlife or a

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hidden veil that can communicate with

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the living

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then you need shadows of your mind

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magazine

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download all issues completely free at

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shadowsmagazine.co.uk

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shadows of your mind where your search

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begins

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this is somewhere in the skies with ryan

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sprague

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welcome everyone to somewhere skies i am

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your host ryan sprague

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and today we have one of our fan

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favorite guests coming back on the show

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returning for the umpteenth time to talk

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about something that i

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recently just discovered and i feel like

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a bad ufologist for that but

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we had james fox on the show last week

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talking all about

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his number one documentary in the world

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the phenomenon

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and in that film was none other than

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computer scientist

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and noted astronomer ufo researcher

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jacques valet

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and uh he talked about a little a little

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memorandum

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that he had found while working with

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another very prominent ufo researcher

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and how that this memo affected his work

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moving forward

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and um i knew nothing about it and it

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blew my mind

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and of course the one person i knew i

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could count on

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to walk me through this memorandum that

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we're going to talk about

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the implication to it what it's all

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about is none other

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than micah hanks how you doing buddy

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great to be here as always my man and uh

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glad to hear

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that you are on the beat as usual uh you

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know i did catch

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james's new documentary and again our

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good friend uh james fox

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does fantastic work uh and for my own

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part

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first i have to say everybody should

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watch the documentary um

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i thought that in fact you know you and

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i talked about this i thought that as

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far as a historical perspective on the

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phenomenon and laying it all out there

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especially for a new audience

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it's going to be great for people who

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are pretty well

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you know steeped in the ufo subject

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you're going to learn some new things

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and i was extremely happy to see of

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course uh jacques valet

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right there on camera i had known of

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course he would be in the documentary

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because some of the folks involved with

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it

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on i was thrilled to hear about that but

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again

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valet is just an icon in the field and

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he is kind of integral to the story i'm

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sure that we will be talking about

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tonight

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absolutely man and again i knew nothing

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about this

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a a program supposedly running parallel

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to project blue book i mean a lot of us

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have theorized for years that

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this project blue book that the us air

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force had implemented

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to uh explain away most of ufo reports

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that came to them

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uh that that was it and that there was

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nothing

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between then and what we now know is the

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secret pentagon ufo program

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uh and that you know everything had an

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explanation except for those

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unknowns that project blue book came up

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with but now i'm learning

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that the story goes much deeper than

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that

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and uh it all started with the pentacle

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memorandum which i would love to talk to

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you about but before we get to that

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let's talk about the two guys who kind

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of brought this all

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to the forefront i mean a lot of my

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listeners and viewers know these two

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names

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but for those maybe just hopping in uh

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who don't know these people as well as

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we do

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this for being one of them uh tell us a

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little about the relationship

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between j ellen heineck and uh

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and jacques valet and and how this all

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came to be i guess would you mind giving

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us a little

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history lesson of the origin story of

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these two uh good cop bad cop buddy cop

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yeah

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i would be delighted uh you know valet

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of course was

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the one of the first scientists to

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publish

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a a popular book but from a scientific

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perspective looking at

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the ufo enigma that of course anatomy of

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a phenomenon

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now he although at the time was also

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working with jail and heinek

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heineck was one of the most visible ufo

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researchers you might say at the time

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but really what he was was he was a

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science advisor

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as a professor of astronomy at

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northwestern university he was a science

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advisor to the u.s air force's project

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blue book

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now again a little bit more about valet

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here

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he had already been interested in ufos

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when he was in france and he comes to

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the united states with his wife

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janine and they move here and in pretty

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short order

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valet ends up working under heinek there

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at the university

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and of course this makes him privy from

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a scientific perspective too much of the

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blue book uh you know

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work that was going on including of

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course their witness reports involving

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purported ufo sightings and you know

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again they had a good working

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relationship but

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if one wants a really interesting

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perspective on all of this i mean

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the what you might call essential

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reading of course read the heinek ufo

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report

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this was a book that was written after

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heineken of course had left his position

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working

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as an advisor to the u.s air force but

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during those u.s air force years when he

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was an

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official advisor to blue book he had to

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kind of walk a certain

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line you might say heineck couldn't go

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all in and say

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guys there's obviously a phenomenon here

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and in fact he often kind of pivoted and

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was more skeptical um

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in fact there were certain instances

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where he was skeptical enough that he

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was kind of held accountable

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by the ufo community and would never

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fully live down

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some of the statements that he made the

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most famous one of course you know the

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ufo sightings over michigan which he had

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said were probably swamp

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gas now hynek later defended his

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position and said

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i was kind of under pressure i had to

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come up with a theory

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of course i wanted to always be

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skeptically inclined and never seem like

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i'm all in we're being

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visited you know the invasion's underway

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but

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for years many commentators including

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jerome clark and others

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had noted that you know that was kind of

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something that would haunt heineck for

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many years

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and his positions also would soften with

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time and he would even acknowledge

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saying what i had said at that time is

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not necessarily in line with my thoughts

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having

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seen project blue book from close to its

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outset through to

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the end and of course the university of

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colorado ufo project headed by edward

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yukondon

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you know seeing all of that hynix hope

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during those years having been that

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well the outcome of the condon committee

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might be that

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he valet and other scientists working

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with them would be able to

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have a renewed strengthened scientific

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effort and perhaps funding for it from

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the u.s air force or scientific

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organizations

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to look more deeply at the ufo

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phenomenon as we know

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that didn't end up being the outcome so

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you know as far as

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heinek and his involvement at the time

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he was having to really kind of walk the

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tightrope

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he was both an advocate at times if he

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saw that there was a case to be made for

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a legitimate ufo sighting but he also

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knew what the air force wanted to hear

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and he himself was skeptical from the

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outset

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and became less so with time now valet

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on the other hand

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he comes into this having had an

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interest in ufos while in france

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bringing that with him actually having

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seen a couple of unidentified

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objects of the aerial variety himself

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bringing that with him to the united

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states

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and he wanted above all else dr valet

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and this is an entirely respectable

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position especially for someone who

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throughout the middle 1960s seeing the

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developments in ufos seeing the

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speculation about what the air force was

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studying and what the nature of this

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phenomenon might be its provenance where

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does it come from

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valet said we need scientists looking at

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this

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and so he at times was very frustrated

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with

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heinek and he would write and this also

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on the necessary reading list if you

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read the heineck ufo report

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don't forget also to read the four

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volumes set that heineken or i'm sorry

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that uh valet wrote

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for business forbidden science

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especially in that first volume

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of forbidden science valet he begins as

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a college student

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and it carries you through those pivotal

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years of project blue book and

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in his journal he is writing and saying

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he is frustrated with alan

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he wishes that heinek instead of going

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on the lecture circuit

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would be back at the university

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laboratory and

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we could be processing these ufo

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sightings we could be analyzing these

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reports

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this is the most important thing we

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could be doing right now

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well he's frustrated to a point i'm

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sorry jump in there

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oh no i was just gonna say that was one

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of the more fascinating things

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that i didn't personally know until i

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heard you speak about

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uh what we're gonna be talking about

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this relationship between the two now we

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see these

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these archival images of the two and

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they look like the two coolest guys out

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there

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they're they're best friends they're out

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there hunting ufos and

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tracking down leads but in reality uh

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yeah

287
00:09:22,389 --> 00:09:21,600
it seemed that heinek was kind of on a

288
00:09:25,350 --> 00:09:22,399
different path

289
00:09:28,230 --> 00:09:25,360
and he was really kind of craving that

290
00:09:30,070 --> 00:09:28,240
notoriety and that acknowledgement by uh

291
00:09:31,670 --> 00:09:30,080
the public i mean correct me if i'm

292
00:09:33,190 --> 00:09:31,680
wrong but as

293
00:09:34,870 --> 00:09:33,200
time went on he became like a

294
00:09:38,389 --> 00:09:34,880
spokesperson for

295
00:09:40,230 --> 00:09:38,399
the air force on this and uh he he liked

296
00:09:41,030 --> 00:09:40,240
the limelight let's be completely honest

297
00:09:46,790 --> 00:09:41,040
he he

298
00:09:48,710 --> 00:09:46,800
modest person when it came to uh

299
00:09:49,990 --> 00:09:48,720
don't put me on television just the

300
00:09:51,590 --> 00:09:50,000
facts like he

301
00:09:53,590 --> 00:09:51,600
he kind of liked this right micah he

302
00:09:54,630 --> 00:09:53,600
kind of liked the attention if you go on

303
00:09:57,910 --> 00:09:54,640
youtube

304
00:10:01,190 --> 00:09:57,920
there is a dating game show okay where

305
00:10:04,069 --> 00:10:01,200
heineck is a guest on this game show

306
00:10:05,590 --> 00:10:04,079
so yes he certainly did not shy away

307
00:10:07,430 --> 00:10:05,600
from the camera

308
00:10:09,829 --> 00:10:07,440
but he was also a person who was

309
00:10:12,790 --> 00:10:09,839
attempting to be more fair and balanced

310
00:10:14,630 --> 00:10:12,800
toward the ufo issue maybe than most

311
00:10:15,590 --> 00:10:14,640
again if you look at his contemporaries

312
00:10:17,990 --> 00:10:15,600
who

313
00:10:19,350 --> 00:10:18,000
like donald kehoe i mean they were all

314
00:10:21,110 --> 00:10:19,360
in they had

315
00:10:23,750 --> 00:10:21,120
really championed the extraterrestrial

316
00:10:24,790 --> 00:10:23,760
hypothesis uh keyhold authored a number

317
00:10:27,590 --> 00:10:24,800
of articles

318
00:10:28,710 --> 00:10:27,600
in popular magazines like look and true

319
00:10:31,590 --> 00:10:28,720
magazine

320
00:10:33,829 --> 00:10:31,600
which you know at times maybe with a

321
00:10:35,350 --> 00:10:33,839
little further than just advocacy i mean

322
00:10:36,710 --> 00:10:35,360
they went really right up to the brink

323
00:10:39,590 --> 00:10:36,720
and sometimes beyond

324
00:10:41,430 --> 00:10:39,600
into sensational territory heinek you

325
00:10:43,750 --> 00:10:41,440
know for the skepticism that people

326
00:10:45,910 --> 00:10:43,760
criticized him for and years later you

327
00:10:47,269 --> 00:10:45,920
know when he finishes his advisory

328
00:10:48,150 --> 00:10:47,279
position with blue book and everything

329
00:10:49,590 --> 00:10:48,160
and then he kind of goes out there and

330
00:10:50,790 --> 00:10:49,600
finally says okay you know on further

331
00:10:52,150 --> 00:10:50,800
review

332
00:10:53,910 --> 00:10:52,160
there is a case to be made for the

333
00:10:54,710 --> 00:10:53,920
existence of the phenomenon whatever it

334
00:10:55,990 --> 00:10:54,720
is

335
00:10:57,670 --> 00:10:56,000
you know for those who would criticize

336
00:10:59,350 --> 00:10:57,680
this skepticism i think he was trying to

337
00:10:59,990 --> 00:10:59,360
find a balance between the overt

338
00:11:02,389 --> 00:11:00,000
skepticism

339
00:11:04,230 --> 00:11:02,399
of donald menzel and others again the

340
00:11:07,750 --> 00:11:04,240
harvard astronomer one of the first

341
00:11:10,230 --> 00:11:07,760
really even before uh high uh

342
00:11:11,670 --> 00:11:10,240
valerather to write a scientific book

343
00:11:14,230 --> 00:11:11,680
about ufos but again

344
00:11:15,190 --> 00:11:14,240
menzel's takes an extremely skeptical

345
00:11:16,870 --> 00:11:15,200
approach

346
00:11:18,790 --> 00:11:16,880
and in his journals valet as he is

347
00:11:20,389 --> 00:11:18,800
preparing for the publication of

348
00:11:22,550 --> 00:11:20,399
anatomy of a phenomenon which we might

349
00:11:24,230 --> 00:11:22,560
say is the first popular book

350
00:11:26,150 --> 00:11:24,240
that is written by a scientist from a

351
00:11:28,550 --> 00:11:26,160
scientist's perspective

352
00:11:29,990 --> 00:11:28,560
but which is an ad advocacy of the

353
00:11:32,470 --> 00:11:30,000
existence of the phenomenon

354
00:11:34,550 --> 00:11:32,480
and in the furtherance of uh the you

355
00:11:36,150 --> 00:11:34,560
know the the case for studying it

356
00:11:37,590 --> 00:11:36,160
that was vale's whole point he wanted to

357
00:11:40,230 --> 00:11:37,600
kind of be the

358
00:11:41,110 --> 00:11:40,240
you know he wanted to be i guess the

359
00:11:44,069 --> 00:11:41,120
antithesis

360
00:11:45,670 --> 00:11:44,079
of but still a scientific perspective

361
00:11:47,910 --> 00:11:45,680
you know counter to

362
00:11:49,590 --> 00:11:47,920
what uh menzel was doing so anyway you

363
00:11:52,470 --> 00:11:49,600
know menzel was the

364
00:11:54,069 --> 00:11:52,480
arch skeptic of his day and then you had

365
00:11:56,230 --> 00:11:54,079
the keyholes on the other side

366
00:11:58,069 --> 00:11:56,240
heineken was trying to find that balance

367
00:11:59,269 --> 00:11:58,079
so i found it to be a respectable

368
00:12:01,829 --> 00:11:59,279
position and therefore

369
00:12:03,509 --> 00:12:01,839
his desire to be you know in the

370
00:12:05,509 --> 00:12:03,519
limelight so to speak

371
00:12:07,670 --> 00:12:05,519
i mean it had its benefits he was

372
00:12:09,750 --> 00:12:07,680
probably the most balanced commentator

373
00:12:11,430 --> 00:12:09,760
of that era who could be out there

374
00:12:12,949 --> 00:12:11,440
speaking to audiences and so he was

375
00:12:15,750 --> 00:12:12,959
getting a lot of attention getting a lot

376
00:12:17,269 --> 00:12:15,760
of requests for presentations and things

377
00:12:18,870 --> 00:12:17,279
and he didn't turn him down but this

378
00:12:20,470 --> 00:12:18,880
frustrated valet

379
00:12:22,790 --> 00:12:20,480
because jacques of course is sitting

380
00:12:24,629 --> 00:12:22,800
back at the university and he's saying

381
00:12:25,750 --> 00:12:24,639
you know here is where the work is done

382
00:12:27,829 --> 00:12:25,760
and it's great to get out there and

383
00:12:29,509 --> 00:12:27,839
evangelize and tell the public about how

384
00:12:30,870 --> 00:12:29,519
science can benefit from the study of

385
00:12:32,550 --> 00:12:30,880
uap but

386
00:12:34,150 --> 00:12:32,560
you know if we really want to understand

387
00:12:35,670 --> 00:12:34,160
what this phenomenon may be

388
00:12:36,790 --> 00:12:35,680
whether there's a threat potential you

389
00:12:38,150 --> 00:12:36,800
know whether this is something that

390
00:12:40,790 --> 00:12:38,160
science can actually

391
00:12:42,389 --> 00:12:40,800
examine and maybe explain we've got to

392
00:12:45,350 --> 00:12:42,399
do that work in the lab first

393
00:12:46,310 --> 00:12:45,360
and that included of course a careful

394
00:12:48,629 --> 00:12:46,320
review

395
00:12:50,790 --> 00:12:48,639
and a better organizational system

396
00:12:52,790 --> 00:12:50,800
applied to the file system

397
00:12:55,110 --> 00:12:52,800
uh related to project blue book and of

398
00:12:57,269 --> 00:12:55,120
course its predecessors grudge and sign

399
00:12:59,269 --> 00:12:57,279
now that's really where this story

400
00:13:01,350 --> 00:12:59,279
begins in 1967

401
00:13:03,190 --> 00:13:01,360
valet decides he's going to help his

402
00:13:04,710 --> 00:13:03,200
friend jaylen heineck he says i'm going

403
00:13:06,470 --> 00:13:04,720
to go over there

404
00:13:07,990 --> 00:13:06,480
i'm going gonna go to his office at his

405
00:13:09,190 --> 00:13:08,000
house i'm gonna get a bunch of these

406
00:13:11,590 --> 00:13:09,200
files that are in such

407
00:13:12,870 --> 00:13:11,600
disarray i'm gonna take these things

408
00:13:15,750 --> 00:13:12,880
back over there and i'm gonna try

409
00:13:17,430 --> 00:13:15,760
and at the observatory i'm gonna try and

410
00:13:18,870 --> 00:13:17,440
you know classify i'm gonna try and

411
00:13:21,829 --> 00:13:18,880
straighten these files up and

412
00:13:23,590 --> 00:13:21,839
get them ordered and so he's going

413
00:13:24,150 --> 00:13:23,600
through the files and he's trying to do

414
00:13:26,629 --> 00:13:24,160
this

415
00:13:27,590 --> 00:13:26,639
he's lamenting in what poor shape so

416
00:13:30,629 --> 00:13:27,600
many of the files

417
00:13:31,670 --> 00:13:30,639
are in right and he decides you know i'm

418
00:13:32,949 --> 00:13:31,680
just going to try and go through these

419
00:13:34,150 --> 00:13:32,959
and so he says the worst section of the

420
00:13:36,870 --> 00:13:34,160
files and i'm actually going to quote

421
00:13:39,350 --> 00:13:36,880
valet here from my notes

422
00:13:40,629 --> 00:13:39,360
this a quote a passage from his journal

423
00:13:41,750 --> 00:13:40,639
which was published in that first

424
00:13:44,310 --> 00:13:41,760
edition of

425
00:13:45,590 --> 00:13:44,320
the forbidden science series he said the

426
00:13:47,269 --> 00:13:45,600
worst section of the file is concerned

427
00:13:48,870 --> 00:13:47,279
the history of the air force projects

428
00:13:49,990 --> 00:13:48,880
themselves from signing grudge to blue

429
00:13:51,910 --> 00:13:50,000
book

430
00:13:53,030 --> 00:13:51,920
and so he is going through these

431
00:13:55,189 --> 00:13:53,040
documents and again a little bit of

432
00:13:56,389 --> 00:13:55,199
history here also in 1952 following a

433
00:13:58,389 --> 00:13:56,399
recommendation

434
00:13:59,750 --> 00:13:58,399
uh to the intelligence advisory

435
00:14:01,829 --> 00:13:59,760
committee following the central

436
00:14:03,030 --> 00:14:01,839
intelligence agency's own review of

437
00:14:04,790 --> 00:14:03,040
project blue book

438
00:14:06,949 --> 00:14:04,800
there had been a panel famously convened

439
00:14:09,430 --> 00:14:06,959
in 1953 this was headed by howard p

440
00:14:11,269 --> 00:14:09,440
robertson and hence it was aptly named

441
00:14:12,310 --> 00:14:11,279
or it is best known as the robertson

442
00:14:14,389 --> 00:14:12,320
panel

443
00:14:15,990 --> 00:14:14,399
and its conclusion is of course or was

444
00:14:18,949 --> 00:14:16,000
that ufos did not present

445
00:14:20,710 --> 00:14:18,959
a a significant threat we'll say to

446
00:14:23,590 --> 00:14:20,720
national security

447
00:14:24,470 --> 00:14:23,600
but the robertson panel did express some

448
00:14:26,310 --> 00:14:24,480
concerns

449
00:14:28,790 --> 00:14:26,320
about other things related to ufos

450
00:14:30,949 --> 00:14:28,800
namely the widespread public interest in

451
00:14:33,829 --> 00:14:30,959
the phenomenon might also represent

452
00:14:34,230 --> 00:14:33,839
a potential threat and in a couple of

453
00:14:35,670 --> 00:14:34,240
ways

454
00:14:37,269 --> 00:14:35,680
we don't want people getting carried

455
00:14:40,069 --> 00:14:37,279
away or getting frightened

456
00:14:41,829 --> 00:14:40,079
we also don't want public interest to be

457
00:14:44,550 --> 00:14:41,839
something that might potentially be

458
00:14:46,150 --> 00:14:44,560
exploitable maybe even by a foreign

459
00:14:48,150 --> 00:14:46,160
adversary which would therefore

460
00:14:50,870 --> 00:14:48,160
allow for clogging of communication

461
00:14:53,509 --> 00:14:50,880
channels and things along these lines

462
00:14:54,310 --> 00:14:53,519
now that occurred in 1953 the following

463
00:14:55,750 --> 00:14:54,320
year

464
00:14:57,269 --> 00:14:55,760
there was a study that was also

465
00:14:58,150 --> 00:14:57,279
completed by the battelle memorial

466
00:15:00,150 --> 00:14:58,160
institute

467
00:15:02,710 --> 00:15:00,160
okay based on a statistical analysis

468
00:15:04,629 --> 00:15:02,720
that involved about 3 200

469
00:15:06,470 --> 00:15:04,639
blue book reports that have been

470
00:15:07,829 --> 00:15:06,480
collected by that time

471
00:15:10,230 --> 00:15:07,839
and then that was later published by the

472
00:15:11,509 --> 00:15:10,240
us air force made available i think

473
00:15:13,829 --> 00:15:11,519
the following year after that so it

474
00:15:14,870 --> 00:15:13,839
might have been maybe 1955 or six when

475
00:15:15,670 --> 00:15:14,880
that was published but this was the

476
00:15:17,350 --> 00:15:15,680
famous

477
00:15:18,790 --> 00:15:17,360
uh project blue book special report

478
00:15:20,389 --> 00:15:18,800
number 14

479
00:15:21,910 --> 00:15:20,399
which you often heard stanton friedman

480
00:15:24,310 --> 00:15:21,920
and others talk about

481
00:15:25,910 --> 00:15:24,320
so anyway that's sort of the the lineage

482
00:15:27,430 --> 00:15:25,920
of what was going on at that time in the

483
00:15:30,150 --> 00:15:27,440
1950s

484
00:15:31,269 --> 00:15:30,160
fast forward again to 1967 there's valet

485
00:15:33,829 --> 00:15:31,279
working through

486
00:15:36,790 --> 00:15:33,839
his friend allen heineck's files he says

487
00:15:39,110 --> 00:15:36,800
alan had misplaced many of the documents

488
00:15:41,749 --> 00:15:39,120
and it is in that section talking about

489
00:15:43,350 --> 00:15:41,759
these boxes of files from that era

490
00:15:45,110 --> 00:15:43,360
that i found a letter that is especially

491
00:15:47,189 --> 00:15:45,120
remarkable fella wrote

492
00:15:49,030 --> 00:15:47,199
because of the new light it throws on

493
00:15:51,990 --> 00:15:49,040
the key period of the robertson panel

494
00:15:54,629 --> 00:15:52,000
and of the classic report number 14.

495
00:15:56,629 --> 00:15:54,639
now as valet describes it in forbidden

496
00:15:59,749 --> 00:15:56,639
science he says it is stamped in red ink

497
00:16:02,230 --> 00:15:59,759
secret security information it is dated

498
00:16:03,430 --> 00:16:02,240
9th of january 1953 it is signed by a

499
00:16:05,990 --> 00:16:03,440
man i will call

500
00:16:08,230 --> 00:16:06,000
pentacle and this document disturbed

501
00:16:10,550 --> 00:16:08,240
valet because as he is reading this

502
00:16:12,389 --> 00:16:10,560
memorandum it's essentially a

503
00:16:13,990 --> 00:16:12,399
communication with a individual whose

504
00:16:15,430 --> 00:16:14,000
name later was released we'll talk about

505
00:16:16,150 --> 00:16:15,440
that later because it's publicly known

506
00:16:18,310 --> 00:16:16,160
now

507
00:16:19,990 --> 00:16:18,320
he calls him pentacle but it seems to be

508
00:16:24,310 --> 00:16:20,000
describing

509
00:16:26,069 --> 00:16:24,320
um a case to be made for some kind of a

510
00:16:28,389 --> 00:16:26,079
secret ufo

511
00:16:29,910 --> 00:16:28,399
operation where first of all thousands

512
00:16:32,550 --> 00:16:29,920
of reports are being

513
00:16:33,509 --> 00:16:32,560
uh ma are being examined and being

514
00:16:35,670 --> 00:16:33,519
studied

515
00:16:37,430 --> 00:16:35,680
uh for various reasons and in turn in

516
00:16:38,710 --> 00:16:37,440
relation to various areas where ufos are

517
00:16:40,949 --> 00:16:38,720
being seen

518
00:16:42,790 --> 00:16:40,959
and one of the prep one of the um the

519
00:16:45,670 --> 00:16:42,800
ideas that is proposed

520
00:16:47,749 --> 00:16:45,680
in the memorandum is that in these areas

521
00:16:50,550 --> 00:16:47,759
where people see a lot of ufos we should

522
00:16:51,430 --> 00:16:50,560
you know institute monitoring systems

523
00:16:54,870 --> 00:16:51,440
and we should also

524
00:16:56,790 --> 00:16:54,880
plan for a number of secret air force

525
00:16:57,350 --> 00:16:56,800
operations and military operations where

526
00:17:00,069 --> 00:16:57,360
we have

527
00:17:02,150 --> 00:17:00,079
aircraft flying in that area uh you know

528
00:17:03,430 --> 00:17:02,160
essentially it seems to be describing we

529
00:17:06,710 --> 00:17:03,440
should attempt to try

530
00:17:08,710 --> 00:17:06,720
and carry out secret exercises

531
00:17:10,390 --> 00:17:08,720
in the sky that would mislead the public

532
00:17:12,710 --> 00:17:10,400
to think that there is ufo phenomenon

533
00:17:15,189 --> 00:17:12,720
going on in those areas

534
00:17:16,829 --> 00:17:15,199
that disturbed valet that was what

535
00:17:19,829 --> 00:17:16,839
concerned him about this

536
00:17:20,630 --> 00:17:19,839
memorandum and he of course talks about

537
00:17:23,189 --> 00:17:20,640
it to

538
00:17:24,870 --> 00:17:23,199
jaylen heineck and then it's kind of

539
00:17:26,390 --> 00:17:24,880
forgotten about for a number of years

540
00:17:28,950 --> 00:17:26,400
it comes to light again in the early

541
00:17:30,390 --> 00:17:28,960
1990s when he publishes valet

542
00:17:31,990 --> 00:17:30,400
forbidden science and then this kind of

543
00:17:33,430 --> 00:17:32,000
opened an entire can of worms for the

544
00:17:34,549 --> 00:17:33,440
ufo community because many people

545
00:17:35,750 --> 00:17:34,559
thought well

546
00:17:37,430 --> 00:17:35,760
maybe we can use the freedom of

547
00:17:39,510 --> 00:17:37,440
information act or you know some other

548
00:17:40,789 --> 00:17:39,520
means to get a copy of this document

549
00:17:42,630 --> 00:17:40,799
find out what it actually said and lo

550
00:17:43,350 --> 00:17:42,640
and behold a few years later it actually

551
00:17:47,029 --> 00:17:43,360
did

552
00:17:50,070 --> 00:17:47,039
eventually surface right right and

553
00:17:50,549 --> 00:17:50,080
then you know once it did surface and we

554
00:17:53,029 --> 00:17:50,559
kind of

555
00:17:54,070 --> 00:17:53,039
learned who this person was that wrote

556
00:17:55,350 --> 00:17:54,080
it um

557
00:17:57,110 --> 00:17:55,360
that's where things got really

558
00:17:57,590 --> 00:17:57,120
interesting for me micah when we started

559
00:18:00,710 --> 00:17:57,600
to learn

560
00:18:01,110 --> 00:18:00,720
names of who pentacle could be and and

561
00:18:02,789 --> 00:18:01,120
uh

562
00:18:04,950 --> 00:18:02,799
why this letter was being sent to wright

563
00:18:06,870 --> 00:18:04,960
patterson which a lot of our listeners

564
00:18:09,909 --> 00:18:06,880
and viewers know is possibly

565
00:18:12,150 --> 00:18:09,919
the place where the roswell wreckage was

566
00:18:12,870 --> 00:18:12,160
stored i see the headline right behind

567
00:18:15,430 --> 00:18:12,880
you there

568
00:18:15,990 --> 00:18:15,440
in uh down in the bunker love it love it

569
00:18:19,510 --> 00:18:16,000
um

570
00:18:22,870 --> 00:18:19,520
you wouldn't mind

571
00:18:24,710 --> 00:18:22,880
uh the person who wrote this the hc

572
00:18:26,390 --> 00:18:24,720
cross as we've come to learn

573
00:18:27,990 --> 00:18:26,400
uh do you know much about this

574
00:18:30,310 --> 00:18:28,000
individual who he

575
00:18:31,990 --> 00:18:30,320
was who we worked for yeah what can you

576
00:18:33,669 --> 00:18:32,000
share with us about all of that

577
00:18:35,909 --> 00:18:33,679
you know there isn't all that much known

578
00:18:37,110 --> 00:18:35,919
about howard cross but again his name is

579
00:18:40,070 --> 00:18:37,120
known now

580
00:18:41,430 --> 00:18:40,080
the memorandum eventually surfaced i

581
00:18:42,070 --> 00:18:41,440
actually would like to read from the

582
00:18:44,630 --> 00:18:42,080
memorandum

583
00:18:46,390 --> 00:18:44,640
because as we're going to find and i

584
00:18:48,230 --> 00:18:46,400
want to go ahead and state this early on

585
00:18:50,549 --> 00:18:48,240
even though i hope to somewhat vindicate

586
00:18:53,110 --> 00:18:50,559
some of vale's perspectives

587
00:18:54,230 --> 00:18:53,120
i do think that there is a strong case

588
00:18:57,029 --> 00:18:54,240
to be made that

589
00:18:58,230 --> 00:18:57,039
on further historical review we can

590
00:19:00,230 --> 00:18:58,240
certainly explain

591
00:19:02,310 --> 00:19:00,240
a lot about the pinnacle memorandum and

592
00:19:04,789 --> 00:19:02,320
i don't fundamentally agree with all of

593
00:19:06,549 --> 00:19:04,799
vale's conclusions about it

594
00:19:08,630 --> 00:19:06,559
but i also think that we have to

595
00:19:09,029 --> 00:19:08,640
understand the historical context into

596
00:19:11,750 --> 00:19:09,039
which

597
00:19:12,630 --> 00:19:11,760
he interpreted the way that he did and

598
00:19:15,270 --> 00:19:12,640
the reasons

599
00:19:16,549 --> 00:19:15,280
that you know that kind of led to that

600
00:19:17,669 --> 00:19:16,559
because there was a lot going on at that

601
00:19:19,750 --> 00:19:17,679
time chief among them

602
00:19:21,190 --> 00:19:19,760
the fact that he and heineck at the time

603
00:19:23,350 --> 00:19:21,200
had felt that they weren't being made

604
00:19:24,549 --> 00:19:23,360
privy to all of the blue book reports

605
00:19:26,470 --> 00:19:24,559
they had long felt that there was a

606
00:19:29,909 --> 00:19:26,480
military element that they were not

607
00:19:31,830 --> 00:19:29,919
uh fully able to access with relation to

608
00:19:33,669 --> 00:19:31,840
the actual reporting of ufos and i think

609
00:19:34,630 --> 00:19:33,679
that in fact that that aspect of this

610
00:19:37,270 --> 00:19:34,640
can actually be

611
00:19:38,950 --> 00:19:37,280
shown that can be proven but coming back

612
00:19:39,590 --> 00:19:38,960
around to this memorandum and who

613
00:19:42,950 --> 00:19:39,600
actually

614
00:19:44,710 --> 00:19:42,960
wrote this um we'll start with the memo

615
00:19:46,150 --> 00:19:44,720
and then we'll talk about how it came to

616
00:19:48,390 --> 00:19:46,160
light um

617
00:19:49,430 --> 00:19:48,400
the document can be read online there is

618
00:19:52,310 --> 00:19:49,440
a website called

619
00:19:55,190 --> 00:19:52,320
coupon not to be confused with mufon and

620
00:19:57,590 --> 00:19:55,200
that is the computer ufo network website

621
00:19:59,029 --> 00:19:57,600
they have a copy of it archived in text

622
00:20:00,630 --> 00:19:59,039
form and they note

623
00:20:02,390 --> 00:20:00,640
a bit of brief background that they

624
00:20:03,590 --> 00:20:02,400
provide here actually from 1993 they say

625
00:20:05,510 --> 00:20:03,600
the pinnacle memorandum has been a

626
00:20:07,190 --> 00:20:05,520
controversial item since its existence

627
00:20:09,190 --> 00:20:07,200
was revealed to the wider ufo community

628
00:20:10,870 --> 00:20:09,200
by dr jacques villa in his excellent

629
00:20:13,350 --> 00:20:10,880
work forbidden science which of course

630
00:20:14,870 --> 00:20:13,360
we have referenced a few times here and

631
00:20:17,110 --> 00:20:14,880
i believe it would have been published a

632
00:20:17,909 --> 00:20:17,120
year prior to this being posted on their

633
00:20:19,750 --> 00:20:17,919
site

634
00:20:21,990 --> 00:20:19,760
they said valet found the two-page memo

635
00:20:23,430 --> 00:20:22,000
in 1967 as we know while going through

636
00:20:24,710 --> 00:20:23,440
allen's papers

637
00:20:26,549 --> 00:20:24,720
shortly thereafter the document which

638
00:20:28,549 --> 00:20:26,559
purported to be the pinnacle memo came

639
00:20:31,350 --> 00:20:28,559
into limited circulation among certain

640
00:20:33,350 --> 00:20:31,360
researchers chief among them was barry

641
00:20:35,590 --> 00:20:33,360
greenwood who is truly an icon

642
00:20:37,350 --> 00:20:35,600
in this field and he along with lawrence

643
00:20:38,710 --> 00:20:37,360
fawcett co-authored a fantastic book

644
00:20:40,789 --> 00:20:38,720
really yet again i'm going to keep

645
00:20:41,510 --> 00:20:40,799
making must-read additions to the ufo

646
00:20:43,430 --> 00:20:41,520
history

647
00:20:45,029 --> 00:20:43,440
chronicle throughout the evening here

648
00:20:46,549 --> 00:20:45,039
and that book clear intent

649
00:20:48,390 --> 00:20:46,559
is the original title it was published

650
00:20:50,230 --> 00:20:48,400
under but it was later republished under

651
00:20:52,310 --> 00:20:50,240
the ufo cover-up

652
00:20:54,230 --> 00:20:52,320
but if you read barry greenwood and

653
00:20:56,710 --> 00:20:54,240
larry fawcett's work you'll see why i

654
00:20:58,549 --> 00:20:56,720
recommend it so highly in fact i mean it

655
00:20:59,750 --> 00:20:58,559
was the blueprint by which many modern

656
00:21:02,549 --> 00:20:59,760
researchers i think have

657
00:21:03,510 --> 00:21:02,559
built you know the the crux of their ufo

658
00:21:04,789 --> 00:21:03,520
inquiries

659
00:21:06,789 --> 00:21:04,799
toward government through the freedom of

660
00:21:08,549 --> 00:21:06,799
information act uh so

661
00:21:10,230 --> 00:21:08,559
as they note here at their sites among

662
00:21:12,549 --> 00:21:10,240
other things this document

663
00:21:14,390 --> 00:21:12,559
which valet called pentacle contains

664
00:21:16,710 --> 00:21:14,400
confirmation that battelle memorial

665
00:21:19,110 --> 00:21:16,720
institute was working on ufo projects at

666
00:21:21,190 --> 00:21:19,120
the time of the robertson panel

667
00:21:23,029 --> 00:21:21,200
now at this point i want to skip ahead

668
00:21:26,390 --> 00:21:23,039
to the actual document and read to you

669
00:21:28,470 --> 00:21:26,400
and then maybe give you some further

670
00:21:30,310 --> 00:21:28,480
clarification and context for what we're

671
00:21:31,430 --> 00:21:30,320
reading about but the listeners at home

672
00:21:33,350 --> 00:21:31,440
should try to put in you

673
00:21:35,669 --> 00:21:33,360
know put yourself in valet's shoes

674
00:21:38,070 --> 00:21:35,679
imagine it's 1967.

675
00:21:39,510 --> 00:21:38,080
there's a lot about the ufo phenomenon

676
00:21:41,909 --> 00:21:39,520
and the government's involvement with it

677
00:21:43,669 --> 00:21:41,919
that was not known at that time

678
00:21:46,149 --> 00:21:43,679
and valet along with heineken were

679
00:21:48,230 --> 00:21:46,159
people who should have known more than

680
00:21:49,909 --> 00:21:48,240
the average person would about this

681
00:21:51,669 --> 00:21:49,919
phenomenon at that time and of course

682
00:21:52,950 --> 00:21:51,679
you know had access direct access to

683
00:21:54,470 --> 00:21:52,960
government information about it so it

684
00:21:55,750 --> 00:21:54,480
would have certainly surprised valet to

685
00:21:57,750 --> 00:21:55,760
read the following

686
00:22:00,070 --> 00:21:57,760
and i quote here addressed to mr miles

687
00:22:01,590 --> 00:22:00,080
e-goal gives his address it says right

688
00:22:02,950 --> 00:22:01,600
patterson air force base ohio and

689
00:22:05,750 --> 00:22:02,960
attention captain edward j

690
00:22:06,470 --> 00:22:05,760
rupelt who of course this document dated

691
00:22:09,430 --> 00:22:06,480
january 9

692
00:22:10,710 --> 00:22:09,440
1953 at the time he was the i believe by

693
00:22:13,190 --> 00:22:10,720
that time he would have been the head of

694
00:22:15,510 --> 00:22:13,200
project blue book

695
00:22:17,029 --> 00:22:15,520
rupelt is addressed and it says dear mr

696
00:22:18,149 --> 00:22:17,039
goal

697
00:22:20,789 --> 00:22:18,159
this letter we're reading from the

698
00:22:23,350 --> 00:22:20,799
actual memorandum this letter concerns a

699
00:22:25,190 --> 00:22:23,360
preliminary recommendation to atic

700
00:22:28,230 --> 00:22:25,200
on future methods of handling the

701
00:22:29,750 --> 00:22:28,240
problem of unidentified aerial objects

702
00:22:31,909 --> 00:22:29,760
this recommendation is based on our

703
00:22:35,029 --> 00:22:31,919
experience to date and analyzing several

704
00:22:36,950 --> 00:22:35,039
thousands of reports on this subject we

705
00:22:38,950 --> 00:22:36,960
regard the recommendation as

706
00:22:40,870 --> 00:22:38,960
preliminary because our analysis is not

707
00:22:42,630 --> 00:22:40,880
yet complete and we are not able to

708
00:22:45,350 --> 00:22:42,640
document it where we feel it should be

709
00:22:46,149 --> 00:22:45,360
supported by facts from the analysis

710
00:22:47,510 --> 00:22:46,159
so they make the following

711
00:22:48,710 --> 00:22:47,520
recommendation they say we are making

712
00:22:51,590 --> 00:22:48,720
this recommendation

713
00:22:53,590 --> 00:22:51,600
prematurely because the cia sponsored

714
00:22:54,149 --> 00:22:53,600
meeting of a scientific panel meeting in

715
00:22:56,710 --> 00:22:54,159
washington

716
00:22:58,950 --> 00:22:56,720
dc and then they give the dates to

717
00:23:01,029 --> 00:22:58,960
consider the problem of flying saucers

718
00:23:03,750 --> 00:23:01,039
the cia sponsor meeting is being held

719
00:23:06,149 --> 00:23:03,760
subsequent to a meeting of cia

720
00:23:08,870 --> 00:23:06,159
atic and our representatives held at

721
00:23:10,230 --> 00:23:08,880
atic on december 12 1952

722
00:23:11,669 --> 00:23:10,240
at the december 12 meeting our

723
00:23:12,870 --> 00:23:11,679
representatives strongly recommended

724
00:23:14,710 --> 00:23:12,880
that a scientific panel

725
00:23:16,630 --> 00:23:14,720
not be set up until the results of our

726
00:23:19,590 --> 00:23:16,640
analysis of the citing reports collected

727
00:23:21,350 --> 00:23:19,600
by atic were available

728
00:23:22,789 --> 00:23:21,360
and then they go on to also talk about a

729
00:23:26,950 --> 00:23:22,799
project stork

730
00:23:28,950 --> 00:23:26,960
and the atic this should be reached as

731
00:23:30,549 --> 00:23:28,960
to what can and what cannot be discussed

732
00:23:32,390 --> 00:23:30,559
at the meeting in washington

733
00:23:34,390 --> 00:23:32,400
in january concerning our preliminary

734
00:23:37,190 --> 00:23:34,400
recommendation to atic

735
00:23:39,669 --> 00:23:37,200
now again going only that far valet is

736
00:23:41,909 --> 00:23:39,679
reading this document and saying okay

737
00:23:42,710 --> 00:23:41,919
hold on so this is obviously referring

738
00:23:44,630 --> 00:23:42,720
to the

739
00:23:46,470 --> 00:23:44,640
panel in washington and the cia

740
00:23:47,830 --> 00:23:46,480
sponsored meeting this is of course the

741
00:23:51,029 --> 00:23:47,840
robertson panel

742
00:23:52,630 --> 00:23:51,039
right yeah and here's somebody

743
00:23:54,549 --> 00:23:52,640
pentacle as he calls him but we now know

744
00:23:57,510 --> 00:23:54,559
that this was a mr howard cross

745
00:23:59,669 --> 00:23:57,520
and he appears to be saying um i'm

746
00:24:01,190 --> 00:23:59,679
advising you guys not to

747
00:24:03,669 --> 00:24:01,200
have this meeting until we have

748
00:24:05,350 --> 00:24:03,679
completed our review

749
00:24:07,269 --> 00:24:05,360
and further he actually says that there

750
00:24:09,990 --> 00:24:07,279
are thousands of reports that are being

751
00:24:11,590 --> 00:24:10,000
analyzed in this review process now this

752
00:24:14,230 --> 00:24:11,600
disturbed valet

753
00:24:15,750 --> 00:24:14,240
because he said first of all we were

754
00:24:16,950 --> 00:24:15,760
unaware at that time that there were

755
00:24:19,110 --> 00:24:16,960
thousands of

756
00:24:20,390 --> 00:24:19,120
you know reports under blue book being

757
00:24:21,990 --> 00:24:20,400
analyzed that that

758
00:24:24,390 --> 00:24:22,000
you know that that many even existed to

759
00:24:27,029 --> 00:24:24,400
be analyzed right

760
00:24:29,669 --> 00:24:27,039
and who was this mr cross and who was

761
00:24:32,230 --> 00:24:29,679
con you know conducting this analysis

762
00:24:33,750 --> 00:24:32,240
and further did they have obviously they

763
00:24:35,269 --> 00:24:33,760
didn't because the robertson panel

764
00:24:38,070 --> 00:24:35,279
convened anyway but

765
00:24:40,630 --> 00:24:38,080
you know why were they saying that a cia

766
00:24:44,710 --> 00:24:40,640
sponsored panel shouldn't convene

767
00:24:46,390 --> 00:24:44,720
well what is plainly evident now

768
00:24:49,750 --> 00:24:46,400
and what we know in hindsight is that

769
00:24:51,350 --> 00:24:49,760
cross was with the mattel institute

770
00:24:53,269 --> 00:24:51,360
although they did not publish the

771
00:24:55,750 --> 00:24:53,279
findings until the year

772
00:24:57,430 --> 00:24:55,760
after the robertson panel convened as we

773
00:24:59,269 --> 00:24:57,440
mentioned earlier

774
00:25:00,549 --> 00:24:59,279
cross was with the mattel institute he

775
00:25:03,990 --> 00:25:00,559
was referring to

776
00:25:05,909 --> 00:25:04,000
the battelle memorial institute review

777
00:25:07,029 --> 00:25:05,919
which of course after it was completed

778
00:25:08,710 --> 00:25:07,039
and then that was

779
00:25:10,710 --> 00:25:08,720
again supplied to the u.s air force it

780
00:25:12,149 --> 00:25:10,720
was subsequently published as

781
00:25:14,070 --> 00:25:12,159
the project blue book special report

782
00:25:16,149 --> 00:25:14,080
number 14. he is saying

783
00:25:18,390 --> 00:25:16,159
we haven't completed the study that

784
00:25:20,070 --> 00:25:18,400
would eventually become that report

785
00:25:22,149 --> 00:25:20,080
that scientific information would be of

786
00:25:23,350 --> 00:25:22,159
extreme use to the robertson panel we

787
00:25:25,029 --> 00:25:23,360
advise you guys

788
00:25:26,789 --> 00:25:25,039
cool your jets and hold off until we

789
00:25:29,430 --> 00:25:26,799
finish this study

790
00:25:30,870 --> 00:25:29,440
but they didn't but what's really

791
00:25:32,710 --> 00:25:30,880
interesting is that apparently

792
00:25:34,870 --> 00:25:32,720
valet had not been aware of the fact

793
00:25:36,549 --> 00:25:34,880
that they were conducting this study for

794
00:25:38,070 --> 00:25:36,559
the us air force at least that much

795
00:25:39,750 --> 00:25:38,080
could be gleaned from the fact that he

796
00:25:41,990 --> 00:25:39,760
was very surprised

797
00:25:43,350 --> 00:25:42,000
to hear that cross i.e pinnacle was

798
00:25:44,630 --> 00:25:43,360
saying we've got thousands of reports

799
00:25:46,789 --> 00:25:44,640
we're looking through i mean again more

800
00:25:48,630 --> 00:25:46,799
than like 3 200 i think

801
00:25:49,990 --> 00:25:48,640
if memory serves and so he's saying yeah

802
00:25:51,350 --> 00:25:50,000
give us some time we've got to try and

803
00:25:53,430 --> 00:25:51,360
dig through all of this

804
00:25:55,190 --> 00:25:53,440
but now returning to the memo what

805
00:25:56,630 --> 00:25:55,200
disturbed valet

806
00:25:58,310 --> 00:25:56,640
the first portion here was nonetheless

807
00:25:59,190 --> 00:25:58,320
surprising but i mean he really gets

808
00:26:03,110 --> 00:25:59,200
disturbed when he

809
00:26:05,269 --> 00:26:03,120
says the following

810
00:26:06,470 --> 00:26:05,279
uh experience to date on our study

811
00:26:08,149 --> 00:26:06,480
patella

812
00:26:09,430 --> 00:26:08,159
of unidentified flying objects shows

813
00:26:11,750 --> 00:26:09,440
that there is a distinct lack of

814
00:26:13,350 --> 00:26:11,760
reliable data with which to work

815
00:26:14,710 --> 00:26:13,360
even the best documented reports are

816
00:26:16,310 --> 00:26:14,720
frequently lacking in critical

817
00:26:18,789 --> 00:26:16,320
information that makes it impossible to

818
00:26:21,190 --> 00:26:18,799
arrive at a possible identification i.e

819
00:26:22,789 --> 00:26:21,200
even in a well-documented report there

820
00:26:23,269 --> 00:26:22,799
is always an element of doubt about the

821
00:26:25,110 --> 00:26:23,279
data

822
00:26:27,029 --> 00:26:25,120
either because the observer had no means

823
00:26:28,950 --> 00:26:27,039
of getting the required data or

824
00:26:30,070 --> 00:26:28,960
it was not prepared to utilize that

825
00:26:33,190 --> 00:26:30,080
individual decide

826
00:26:35,909 --> 00:26:33,200
the observer was not prepared to utilize

827
00:26:36,950 --> 00:26:35,919
the means at his disposal and so they

828
00:26:39,029 --> 00:26:36,960
say

829
00:26:41,190 --> 00:26:39,039
therefore we recommend a controlled

830
00:26:43,669 --> 00:26:41,200
experiment be set up by which reliable

831
00:26:45,669 --> 00:26:43,679
physical data can be obtained

832
00:26:46,789 --> 00:26:45,679
they say a tentative preliminary plan by

833
00:26:49,590 --> 00:26:46,799
which the experiment

834
00:26:50,549 --> 00:26:49,600
could be designated or rather designed

835
00:26:52,390 --> 00:26:50,559
and carried out

836
00:26:53,830 --> 00:26:52,400
is discussed in the following paragraphs

837
00:26:54,870 --> 00:26:53,840
they go on to talk about the ways that

838
00:26:57,669 --> 00:26:54,880
they would hope to try

839
00:26:59,750 --> 00:26:57,679
and carry out a you know wide reaching

840
00:27:01,590 --> 00:26:59,760
experiment that would help us gain more

841
00:27:03,350 --> 00:27:01,600
information about ufos than the general

842
00:27:05,029 --> 00:27:03,360
public had managed to do

843
00:27:06,630 --> 00:27:05,039
in other words they're saying we realize

844
00:27:08,710 --> 00:27:06,640
the average observer

845
00:27:09,909 --> 00:27:08,720
doesn't have access to all the kind of

846
00:27:12,070 --> 00:27:09,919
you know instruments that might be

847
00:27:14,070 --> 00:27:12,080
helpful in studying ufos

848
00:27:15,669 --> 00:27:14,080
that namely because they aren't prepared

849
00:27:18,149 --> 00:27:15,679
they don't know when a ufo sighting is

850
00:27:20,230 --> 00:27:18,159
going to occur or where one will be seen

851
00:27:21,430 --> 00:27:20,240
so i said if based on the review of all

852
00:27:24,549 --> 00:27:21,440
this data

853
00:27:27,510 --> 00:27:24,559
we could determine a few things one

854
00:27:29,269 --> 00:27:27,520
where ufos are most likely to be seen

855
00:27:31,590 --> 00:27:29,279
okay and then two if we could

856
00:27:33,269 --> 00:27:31,600
based on where we think we're likely to

857
00:27:33,830 --> 00:27:33,279
see them we could set up tracking and

858
00:27:35,750 --> 00:27:33,840
monitoring

859
00:27:37,990 --> 00:27:35,760
stations so we would be prepared in the

860
00:27:39,590 --> 00:27:38,000
event that one actually does show up

861
00:27:41,350 --> 00:27:39,600
we might actually be able to get better

862
00:27:42,549 --> 00:27:41,360
information about this phenomenon than

863
00:27:45,430 --> 00:27:42,559
the public has

864
00:27:47,190 --> 00:27:45,440
as yet produced now they go on to talk

865
00:27:47,990 --> 00:27:47,200
about a number of things they say a very

866
00:27:49,830 --> 00:27:48,000
complete record

867
00:27:51,990 --> 00:27:49,840
of the weather should also be kept

868
00:27:53,909 --> 00:27:52,000
during the time of this experiment

869
00:27:55,350 --> 00:27:53,919
cross says that coverage should be so

870
00:27:56,310 --> 00:27:55,360
complete that any object in the air

871
00:27:57,909 --> 00:27:56,320
could be tracked

872
00:28:00,389 --> 00:27:57,919
and information as to its altitude

873
00:28:02,789 --> 00:28:00,399
velocity size shape color time of day

874
00:28:04,549 --> 00:28:02,799
etc could be recorded

875
00:28:06,230 --> 00:28:04,559
he says all balloon releases or known

876
00:28:07,750 --> 00:28:06,240
balloon paths aircraft flights and

877
00:28:09,190 --> 00:28:07,760
flights of rockets in the test area

878
00:28:10,630 --> 00:28:09,200
should be known to those in charge of

879
00:28:13,590 --> 00:28:10,640
the experiment

880
00:28:16,230 --> 00:28:13,600
and notably he says many different types

881
00:28:18,070 --> 00:28:16,240
of aerial activity should be secretly

882
00:28:19,269 --> 00:28:18,080
and purposefully scheduled within the

883
00:28:20,950 --> 00:28:19,279
area

884
00:28:23,350 --> 00:28:20,960
now that specifically is the line that

885
00:28:25,510 --> 00:28:23,360
really troubled valet he said okay

886
00:28:26,789 --> 00:28:25,520
what are we talking about here now i

887
00:28:27,510 --> 00:28:26,799
could give you my interpretation if

888
00:28:31,430 --> 00:28:27,520
you'd like

889
00:28:33,430 --> 00:28:31,440
um well let's yeah let's unpack this

890
00:28:34,230 --> 00:28:33,440
micah because this is probably the most

891
00:28:36,870 --> 00:28:34,240
uh

892
00:28:39,190 --> 00:28:36,880
sensational aspect to this entire memo

893
00:28:39,909 --> 00:28:39,200
and what i can understand why valet

894
00:28:42,149 --> 00:28:39,919
would be

895
00:28:43,110 --> 00:28:42,159
uh troubled by that uh we're talking

896
00:28:47,110 --> 00:28:43,120
about

897
00:28:49,190 --> 00:28:47,120
simulated ufo events which is a

898
00:28:51,990 --> 00:28:49,200
you know seems like a very out there

899
00:28:53,830 --> 00:28:52,000
thing but we have people in modern day

900
00:28:56,230 --> 00:28:53,840
theorizing that these things are going

901
00:28:57,830 --> 00:28:56,240
on so you do have to wonder but i would

902
00:28:58,310 --> 00:28:57,840
love to get your interpretation of this

903
00:29:00,070 --> 00:28:58,320
because

904
00:29:01,590 --> 00:29:00,080
while it may seem like we're talking a

905
00:29:04,549 --> 00:29:01,600
planned ufo event

906
00:29:05,510 --> 00:29:04,559
um there's there's a lot to this and i

907
00:29:07,510 --> 00:29:05,520
think um

908
00:29:09,909 --> 00:29:07,520
a lot to unpack when it comes to this

909
00:29:10,549 --> 00:29:09,919
this memo it's not that big but it says

910
00:29:12,870 --> 00:29:10,559
so much

911
00:29:14,630 --> 00:29:12,880
so it's easy to kind of read between the

912
00:29:15,750 --> 00:29:14,640
lines but yeah what do you think what do

913
00:29:17,110 --> 00:29:15,760
you think about this

914
00:29:20,149 --> 00:29:17,120
well again we have to remember that the

915
00:29:23,830 --> 00:29:20,159
memo was written in january 1953

916
00:29:26,630 --> 00:29:23,840
ballet is reading it in 1967.

917
00:29:28,950 --> 00:29:26,640
and so he presumably is is asking

918
00:29:32,630 --> 00:29:28,960
himself as he's reading this okay

919
00:29:34,310 --> 00:29:32,640
well then in the years leading up to now

920
00:29:36,310 --> 00:29:34,320
these ufos that i've been studying how

921
00:29:38,549 --> 00:29:36,320
many of these might have been

922
00:29:40,149 --> 00:29:38,559
again different types of aerial activity

923
00:29:41,190 --> 00:29:40,159
that have been secretly and purposefully

924
00:29:43,669 --> 00:29:41,200
scheduled within

925
00:29:45,350 --> 00:29:43,679
ufo sightings hot spots i mean it would

926
00:29:46,149 --> 00:29:45,360
have been a fair question for him to ask

927
00:29:48,950 --> 00:29:46,159
right

928
00:29:50,950 --> 00:29:48,960
absolutely yeah and so i think for valet

929
00:29:52,710 --> 00:29:50,960
he was saying well

930
00:29:54,549 --> 00:29:52,720
you know the ufo phenomenon we have been

931
00:29:55,909 --> 00:29:54,559
studying may not be necessarily what we

932
00:29:59,190 --> 00:29:55,919
thought it was

933
00:30:01,350 --> 00:29:59,200
and again his interpretation at the time

934
00:30:02,710 --> 00:30:01,360
and that's key his interpretation at the

935
00:30:05,269 --> 00:30:02,720
time had been

936
00:30:07,269 --> 00:30:05,279
well it also seems that there is another

937
00:30:08,389 --> 00:30:07,279
group studying ufos that we don't know

938
00:30:10,149 --> 00:30:08,399
about

939
00:30:11,510 --> 00:30:10,159
now again i emphasize the fact that that

940
00:30:12,710 --> 00:30:11,520
had been his interpretation at the time

941
00:30:15,190 --> 00:30:12,720
because that was based on the

942
00:30:17,430 --> 00:30:15,200
evidence at his you know disposal but in

943
00:30:18,710 --> 00:30:17,440
hindsight with our knowledge of

944
00:30:21,350 --> 00:30:18,720
the government studies that have looked

945
00:30:23,669 --> 00:30:21,360
at ufos we know of course about sign

946
00:30:24,710 --> 00:30:23,679
project grudge and project blue book

947
00:30:26,389 --> 00:30:24,720
but of course there was also the

948
00:30:27,590 --> 00:30:26,399
battelle study which we're talking about

949
00:30:29,510 --> 00:30:27,600
here and

950
00:30:30,630 --> 00:30:29,520
at the same time roughly coinciding with

951
00:30:33,110 --> 00:30:30,640
in the midst of

952
00:30:35,269 --> 00:30:33,120
we have the robertson panel and then of

953
00:30:37,110 --> 00:30:35,279
course that all rounds out in 1968 with

954
00:30:38,549 --> 00:30:37,120
the university of colorado project it

955
00:30:39,750 --> 00:30:38,559
concluded that year it actually ran for

956
00:30:41,350 --> 00:30:39,760
a couple of years

957
00:30:42,789 --> 00:30:41,360
but with the conclusion of that project

958
00:30:44,950 --> 00:30:42,799
and its findings

959
00:30:46,789 --> 00:30:44,960
we also saw the end of project blue book

960
00:30:50,310 --> 00:30:46,799
and this was a tremendous cultural

961
00:30:52,630 --> 00:30:50,320
shift in attitude toward the ufo subject

962
00:30:54,149 --> 00:30:52,640
we saw this shift in media coverage you

963
00:30:55,590 --> 00:30:54,159
know throughout the 60s leading up to

964
00:30:57,269 --> 00:30:55,600
the end of that project with the

965
00:30:59,110 --> 00:30:57,279
university of colorado

966
00:31:01,669 --> 00:30:59,120
i mean you saw a lot of reporting about

967
00:31:03,269 --> 00:31:01,679
ufos especially in papers of record like

968
00:31:06,710 --> 00:31:03,279
the new york times

969
00:31:08,549 --> 00:31:06,720
and after 1968 that coverage drops off

970
00:31:10,950 --> 00:31:08,559
and it you know remains low even though

971
00:31:12,310 --> 00:31:10,960
you see spikes like during the 1990s

972
00:31:13,830 --> 00:31:12,320
when the you know the us air force

973
00:31:15,430 --> 00:31:13,840
reopened the books on roswell during the

974
00:31:17,110 --> 00:31:15,440
clinton administration

975
00:31:18,789 --> 00:31:17,120
you see periods where there are renewed

976
00:31:21,669 --> 00:31:18,799
interests but never peaks again

977
00:31:23,190 --> 00:31:21,679
until really 2017 with the publication

978
00:31:24,630 --> 00:31:23,200
of the article the shot heard around the

979
00:31:26,389 --> 00:31:24,640
world you know leslie kane ralph

980
00:31:28,549 --> 00:31:26,399
blumenthal and helene cooper

981
00:31:30,149 --> 00:31:28,559
talking about you know black budgets and

982
00:31:31,269 --> 00:31:30,159
you know weird auras and things like

983
00:31:33,590 --> 00:31:31,279
this you know

984
00:31:35,430 --> 00:31:33,600
it had been since the 1960s prior to the

985
00:31:37,110 --> 00:31:35,440
end of the colorado project

986
00:31:38,950 --> 00:31:37,120
that ufos were getting that kind of

987
00:31:40,310 --> 00:31:38,960
attention and so we have to recognize

988
00:31:42,310 --> 00:31:40,320
that in this period a tremendous

989
00:31:44,070 --> 00:31:42,320
cultural shift was about to occur and

990
00:31:46,070 --> 00:31:44,080
valet again

991
00:31:48,549 --> 00:31:46,080
being he thought privy to all the blue

992
00:31:50,710 --> 00:31:48,559
book reports but apparently had not been

993
00:31:52,789 --> 00:31:50,720
he was very confused at the time about

994
00:31:54,389 --> 00:31:52,799
what this memorandum meant having not

995
00:31:55,750 --> 00:31:54,399
been aware apparently that it was a

996
00:31:56,630 --> 00:31:55,760
member of the battelle memorial

997
00:31:58,710 --> 00:31:56,640
institute

998
00:32:00,870 --> 00:31:58,720
trying to advise that the cia hold off

999
00:32:02,789 --> 00:32:00,880
until they could finish their study

1000
00:32:04,470 --> 00:32:02,799
but i mentioned earlier that we really

1001
00:32:06,870 --> 00:32:04,480
needed to kind of try and put this

1002
00:32:08,310 --> 00:32:06,880
into further historical context and so

1003
00:32:09,509 --> 00:32:08,320
in addition to all those elements i'm

1004
00:32:11,750 --> 00:32:09,519
discussing right there

1005
00:32:12,950 --> 00:32:11,760
we also have to remember that and if you

1006
00:32:15,029 --> 00:32:12,960
read forbid

1007
00:32:17,190 --> 00:32:15,039
forbidden science you'll actually see

1008
00:32:19,350 --> 00:32:17,200
valet comment about this a lot

1009
00:32:20,549 --> 00:32:19,360
apparently he and heinek spoke a good

1010
00:32:22,230 --> 00:32:20,559
bit about the fact that they were

1011
00:32:23,590 --> 00:32:22,240
frustrated that they felt that there was

1012
00:32:24,470 --> 00:32:23,600
information being gathered about the

1013
00:32:27,909 --> 00:32:24,480
phenomenon

1014
00:32:28,389 --> 00:32:27,919
that they were not made privy to and so

1015
00:32:32,070 --> 00:32:28,399
again

1016
00:32:34,230 --> 00:32:32,080
valet felt upon finding this memorandum

1017
00:32:36,310 --> 00:32:34,240
that this somewhat vindicated his view

1018
00:32:37,750 --> 00:32:36,320
that well maybe the military is

1019
00:32:39,830 --> 00:32:37,760
gathering more data

1020
00:32:41,029 --> 00:32:39,840
than what you know alan and i are being

1021
00:32:42,470 --> 00:32:41,039
made aware of

1022
00:32:44,310 --> 00:32:42,480
now it wouldn't come to light for a

1023
00:32:45,909 --> 00:32:44,320
number of years and this is unrelated to

1024
00:32:46,549 --> 00:32:45,919
the pentacle memorandum but if we think

1025
00:32:48,870 --> 00:32:46,559
about the jan

1026
00:32:50,070 --> 00:32:48,880
app directive stanton freeman talked a

1027
00:32:51,750 --> 00:32:50,080
lot about this

1028
00:32:53,190 --> 00:32:51,760
and others have too john greenwald also

1029
00:32:53,830 --> 00:32:53,200
has talked about this a lot over the

1030
00:32:56,230 --> 00:32:53,840
years

1031
00:32:57,669 --> 00:32:56,240
the janet i believe janet 146 directive

1032
00:33:00,149 --> 00:32:57,679
it's essentially describing the

1033
00:33:02,070 --> 00:33:00,159
communication channels for reporting

1034
00:33:03,350 --> 00:33:02,080
sightings of unidentified flying objects

1035
00:33:04,950 --> 00:33:03,360
and other things

1036
00:33:06,630 --> 00:33:04,960
a number of things are discussed but

1037
00:33:08,870 --> 00:33:06,640
ufos being one of them

1038
00:33:10,470 --> 00:33:08,880
and it's essentially saying what to do

1039
00:33:12,230 --> 00:33:10,480
if you are a military service

1040
00:33:13,990 --> 00:33:12,240
man or woman who sees something how you

1041
00:33:15,590 --> 00:33:14,000
report it where it goes

1042
00:33:17,430 --> 00:33:15,600
and to give you the very briefest

1043
00:33:19,430 --> 00:33:17,440
summary essentially it says that

1044
00:33:20,549 --> 00:33:19,440
you know we contact local military

1045
00:33:22,310 --> 00:33:20,559
outlets but we also

1046
00:33:25,190 --> 00:33:22,320
forward these reports of unidentifieds

1047
00:33:28,789 --> 00:33:25,200
on to norad and as we know norad

1048
00:33:30,630 --> 00:33:28,799
is exempt from foia and so as

1049
00:33:32,070 --> 00:33:30,640
uh stanton friedman and others have

1050
00:33:33,909 --> 00:33:32,080
argued over the years

1051
00:33:35,190 --> 00:33:33,919
what this showed was in addition to the

1052
00:33:37,350 --> 00:33:35,200
fact that there were certain reports

1053
00:33:39,990 --> 00:33:37,360
that were being sent to an agency

1054
00:33:40,870 --> 00:33:40,000
which was not subject to foia once foia

1055
00:33:43,430 --> 00:33:40,880
came into

1056
00:33:45,029 --> 00:33:43,440
existence this also shows that there

1057
00:33:47,269 --> 00:33:45,039
appeared to be a reporting channel

1058
00:33:48,149 --> 00:33:47,279
outside of and distinct from project

1059
00:33:49,990 --> 00:33:48,159
blue book

1060
00:33:51,509 --> 00:33:50,000
so not all the sightings of ufos that

1061
00:33:52,149 --> 00:33:51,519
were occurring especially those made by

1062
00:33:54,070 --> 00:33:52,159
the military

1063
00:33:55,590 --> 00:33:54,080
were being sent to the air force and

1064
00:33:56,789 --> 00:33:55,600
studied within the context of project

1065
00:33:58,789 --> 00:33:56,799
blue book obviously

1066
00:34:00,149 --> 00:33:58,799
there was an ex a separate reporting

1067
00:34:01,350 --> 00:34:00,159
channel and there were some reports that

1068
00:34:03,110 --> 00:34:01,360
went elsewhere

1069
00:34:04,549 --> 00:34:03,120
what happens to all those those reports

1070
00:34:06,149 --> 00:34:04,559
by the way have a designation there

1071
00:34:09,190 --> 00:34:06,159
called cirvi

1072
00:34:10,310 --> 00:34:09,200
or service you can actually read some of

1073
00:34:12,629 --> 00:34:10,320
them online because

1074
00:34:14,230 --> 00:34:12,639
yet again my colleague john greenwald

1075
00:34:15,829 --> 00:34:14,240
did manage to obtain a few of those a

1076
00:34:17,750 --> 00:34:15,839
few years ago but he didn't get him from

1077
00:34:19,990 --> 00:34:17,760
the u.s side of norad

1078
00:34:22,230 --> 00:34:20,000
he went to the canadians he called the

1079
00:34:24,550 --> 00:34:22,240
canadian branch he asked for documents

1080
00:34:26,310 --> 00:34:24,560
and they were happy to give him some but

1081
00:34:28,149 --> 00:34:26,320
you know the united states they will

1082
00:34:29,109 --> 00:34:28,159
very seldom ever even acknowledge a

1083
00:34:32,230 --> 00:34:29,119
request

1084
00:34:34,230 --> 00:34:32,240
for those serious reports so again

1085
00:34:35,829 --> 00:34:34,240
we might say that valet was not wrong

1086
00:34:37,349 --> 00:34:35,839
that there was a separate reporting

1087
00:34:39,030 --> 00:34:37,359
channel and that's not what the pentacle

1088
00:34:41,109 --> 00:34:39,040
memorandum dealt with

1089
00:34:42,629 --> 00:34:41,119
but again his interpretation of the

1090
00:34:43,829 --> 00:34:42,639
pinnacle memorandum had been his

1091
00:34:46,069 --> 00:34:43,839
suspicion that such

1092
00:34:47,589 --> 00:34:46,079
a separate reporting channel might exist

1093
00:34:48,869 --> 00:34:47,599
and i think he was fundamentally wrecked

1094
00:34:50,629 --> 00:34:48,879
on that point

1095
00:34:51,990 --> 00:34:50,639
i i would have to agree i mean it's

1096
00:34:52,869 --> 00:34:52,000
clear i mean especially when you're

1097
00:34:54,869 --> 00:34:52,879
dealing with

1098
00:34:56,790 --> 00:34:54,879
something like jnapp like you mentioned

1099
00:34:58,550 --> 00:34:56,800
uh the government is very good at

1100
00:35:00,630 --> 00:34:58,560
finding ways to

1101
00:35:02,069 --> 00:35:00,640
funnel things into a certain place where

1102
00:35:03,510 --> 00:35:02,079
the public will never

1103
00:35:05,510 --> 00:35:03,520
figure it out and i think this is a

1104
00:35:07,030 --> 00:35:05,520
prime example of that and uh

1105
00:35:08,950 --> 00:35:07,040
i apologize you can probably hear the

1106
00:35:14,470 --> 00:35:08,960
train outside my window micah

1107
00:35:17,589 --> 00:35:16,150
it's not the same right now but we'll

1108
00:35:21,190 --> 00:35:17,599
get you back here soon

1109
00:35:23,430 --> 00:35:21,200
um well yeah i think uh what

1110
00:35:24,950 --> 00:35:23,440
what we can deduce is that valet was

1111
00:35:26,870 --> 00:35:24,960
definitely right you know there were

1112
00:35:27,670 --> 00:35:26,880
clearly reports that were not making it

1113
00:35:30,230 --> 00:35:27,680
to heinek

1114
00:35:31,829 --> 00:35:30,240
during blue book we know blue book was

1115
00:35:35,270 --> 00:35:31,839
kind of an exercise in

1116
00:35:36,870 --> 00:35:35,280
um public relations and getting the most

1117
00:35:37,589 --> 00:35:36,880
filtered version out to the public as

1118
00:35:40,390 --> 00:35:37,599
possible

1119
00:35:41,349 --> 00:35:40,400
um but one of the the the interesting

1120
00:35:43,670 --> 00:35:41,359
things that i

1121
00:35:44,630 --> 00:35:43,680
read in an article that you wrote on the

1122
00:35:48,390 --> 00:35:44,640
pinnacle

1123
00:35:50,150 --> 00:35:48,400
uh entire affair is when valet finally

1124
00:35:53,430 --> 00:35:50,160
approached heinek about this

1125
00:35:54,550 --> 00:35:53,440
memo and heinek then went to i believe

1126
00:35:56,630 --> 00:35:54,560
it was patel

1127
00:35:59,109 --> 00:35:56,640
and said what is this what is going on

1128
00:36:00,630 --> 00:35:59,119
would you mind maybe kind of um

1129
00:36:03,030 --> 00:36:00,640
running us through that whole aspect of

1130
00:36:05,349 --> 00:36:03,040
all this because their reaction was not

1131
00:36:06,870 --> 00:36:05,359
exactly what you'd expect well you know

1132
00:36:08,630 --> 00:36:06,880
you the thought that they would say oh

1133
00:36:09,030 --> 00:36:08,640
yeah you know that's just our stuff no i

1134
00:36:11,270 --> 00:36:09,040
mean

1135
00:36:12,069 --> 00:36:11,280
really they they were not happy that

1136
00:36:13,430 --> 00:36:12,079
heinek

1137
00:36:15,030 --> 00:36:13,440
approached them about it and they

1138
00:36:16,630 --> 00:36:15,040
essentially remember he said they they

1139
00:36:17,829 --> 00:36:16,640
kind of tell heinek you know

1140
00:36:20,230 --> 00:36:17,839
you're not supposed to ever talk about

1141
00:36:23,109 --> 00:36:20,240
that and they just kind of shut him down

1142
00:36:23,829 --> 00:36:23,119
now what i'll point out is and this is

1143
00:36:25,990 --> 00:36:23,839
something that

1144
00:36:27,670 --> 00:36:26,000
uh is pretty well known i guess in in

1145
00:36:29,510 --> 00:36:27,680
certain ufo circles but i mentioned

1146
00:36:30,710 --> 00:36:29,520
heineck's book the heineke ufo report

1147
00:36:32,069 --> 00:36:30,720
earlier

1148
00:36:35,349 --> 00:36:32,079
um early in that book i believe the

1149
00:36:37,109 --> 00:36:35,359
first chapter around page 21 or 20

1150
00:36:39,670 --> 00:36:37,119
22. it's one of those or somewhere in

1151
00:36:40,630 --> 00:36:39,680
there he mentions a document from

1152
00:36:43,030 --> 00:36:40,640
battelle

1153
00:36:44,870 --> 00:36:43,040
memorial institute that was sent to

1154
00:36:46,310 --> 00:36:44,880
members of the robertson panel

1155
00:36:47,190 --> 00:36:46,320
there's only about a paragraph about it

1156
00:36:48,790 --> 00:36:47,200
and then there are some additional

1157
00:36:50,470 --> 00:36:48,800
paragraphs thereafter that discuss sort

1158
00:36:52,390 --> 00:36:50,480
of the context but

1159
00:36:53,990 --> 00:36:52,400
heinek back in the 70s when he published

1160
00:36:55,750 --> 00:36:54,000
that book he was referring to the

1161
00:36:57,510 --> 00:36:55,760
pinnacle memorandum

1162
00:36:59,109 --> 00:36:57,520
now obviously he knew about it because

1163
00:37:00,870 --> 00:36:59,119
it was in his files

1164
00:37:02,390 --> 00:37:00,880
valet found it and valet goes to

1165
00:37:04,310 --> 00:37:02,400
heineken he addresses

1166
00:37:06,470 --> 00:37:04,320
the issue with heineken then like you

1167
00:37:06,870 --> 00:37:06,480
mentioned yes heinek went to battelle

1168
00:37:09,510 --> 00:37:06,880
and he

1169
00:37:10,390 --> 00:37:09,520
asks questions about this later and so

1170
00:37:12,550 --> 00:37:10,400
their response

1171
00:37:13,430 --> 00:37:12,560
seemed to further vindicate valet's view

1172
00:37:14,870 --> 00:37:13,440
that

1173
00:37:16,310 --> 00:37:14,880
we are being told not to talk about

1174
00:37:18,069 --> 00:37:16,320
something that we found and this clearly

1175
00:37:19,589 --> 00:37:18,079
shows that there's ufo study going on

1176
00:37:20,069 --> 00:37:19,599
outside of what we are being made privy

1177
00:37:27,030 --> 00:37:20,079
to

1178
00:37:28,470 --> 00:37:27,040
out that even though

1179
00:37:30,550 --> 00:37:28,480
ballet would write about the pinnacle

1180
00:37:31,910 --> 00:37:30,560
memorandum and he had essentially been

1181
00:37:34,069 --> 00:37:31,920
the first person

1182
00:37:35,750 --> 00:37:34,079
to really reference it in detail back in

1183
00:37:37,829 --> 00:37:35,760
1992

1184
00:37:39,750 --> 00:37:37,839
i mean a number of years beforehand

1185
00:37:41,349 --> 00:37:39,760
heineck did mention it in his book he

1186
00:37:41,910 --> 00:37:41,359
didn't refer to it as pinnacle he didn't

1187
00:37:43,910 --> 00:37:41,920
name

1188
00:37:45,510 --> 00:37:43,920
the author but he references the

1189
00:37:47,109 --> 00:37:45,520
document right there

1190
00:37:48,310 --> 00:37:47,119
early in his book and it's it's a clear

1191
00:37:49,349 --> 00:37:48,320
reference and i actually went back and

1192
00:37:51,510 --> 00:37:49,359
checked on that and again i want to give

1193
00:37:53,430 --> 00:37:51,520
a shout out to isaac coy

1194
00:37:55,670 --> 00:37:53,440
online he is a fantastic researcher and

1195
00:37:57,670 --> 00:37:55,680
he has an entire list at his website

1196
00:37:58,790 --> 00:37:57,680
of references in various literature from

1197
00:38:00,470 --> 00:37:58,800
over the years

1198
00:38:02,150 --> 00:38:00,480
that are made to that document he

1199
00:38:03,750 --> 00:38:02,160
actually includes heinek's reference to

1200
00:38:05,349 --> 00:38:03,760
it on his list so good on him he is a

1201
00:38:06,230 --> 00:38:05,359
fantastic researcher one of the best in

1202
00:38:08,310 --> 00:38:06,240
my opinion

1203
00:38:09,430 --> 00:38:08,320
but yeah there it is i mean heineken has

1204
00:38:12,470 --> 00:38:09,440
talked about this uh

1205
00:38:15,109 --> 00:38:12,480
you know even prior to valet now

1206
00:38:15,750 --> 00:38:15,119
what does that mean well i mean it's not

1207
00:38:17,349 --> 00:38:15,760
like he beat

1208
00:38:19,750 --> 00:38:17,359
valet to the punch of course he knew

1209
00:38:20,630 --> 00:38:19,760
about it valet had talked about it with

1210
00:38:23,589 --> 00:38:20,640
him he had found it

1211
00:38:24,470 --> 00:38:23,599
in alan's files but the legacy of

1212
00:38:26,550 --> 00:38:24,480
pinnacle i think

1213
00:38:28,310 --> 00:38:26,560
is a bit of a mixed bag because although

1214
00:38:29,829 --> 00:38:28,320
i think that valet was somewhat

1215
00:38:32,069 --> 00:38:29,839
vindicated

1216
00:38:34,310 --> 00:38:32,079
on his broader perception of what was

1217
00:38:36,790 --> 00:38:34,320
happening at that time

1218
00:38:38,790 --> 00:38:36,800
i also disagree with his interpretation

1219
00:38:41,109 --> 00:38:38,800
of that document because now with

1220
00:38:42,710 --> 00:38:41,119
further historical insight about what

1221
00:38:44,390 --> 00:38:42,720
was happening at that time

1222
00:38:46,230 --> 00:38:44,400
we know of course that howard cross was

1223
00:38:48,230 --> 00:38:46,240
with battelle they were conducting a

1224
00:38:50,630 --> 00:38:48,240
study blue book had gathered more than 3

1225
00:38:52,470 --> 00:38:50,640
000 ufo reports at that time

1226
00:38:54,470 --> 00:38:52,480
those were being studied and that would

1227
00:38:55,349 --> 00:38:54,480
be later published in the special report

1228
00:38:56,870 --> 00:38:55,359
number 14

1229
00:38:59,190 --> 00:38:56,880
they were explicitly saying to the

1230
00:39:00,230 --> 00:38:59,200
robertson panel look guys hold off until

1231
00:39:01,670 --> 00:39:00,240
we finish this study

1232
00:39:03,510 --> 00:39:01,680
you really will need the information

1233
00:39:04,390 --> 00:39:03,520
that we could provide so that's what

1234
00:39:06,150 --> 00:39:04,400
they're saying but

1235
00:39:07,270 --> 00:39:06,160
now there's a bit of controversy too and

1236
00:39:08,550 --> 00:39:07,280
i know you've got some questions from

1237
00:39:09,589 --> 00:39:08,560
listeners we'll get to here in a moment

1238
00:39:11,750 --> 00:39:09,599
but i'll just add

1239
00:39:13,589 --> 00:39:11,760
you know there's been quite a bit of

1240
00:39:15,190 --> 00:39:13,599
controversy about this document over the

1241
00:39:17,270 --> 00:39:15,200
years because again valet

1242
00:39:20,790 --> 00:39:17,280
has maintained that even though we can

1243
00:39:23,829 --> 00:39:20,800
agree on the historical circumstances

1244
00:39:25,349 --> 00:39:23,839
at play here uh he says that in the

1245
00:39:27,589 --> 00:39:25,359
coming years this was his

1246
00:39:29,510 --> 00:39:27,599
feeling and i think that this was really

1247
00:39:31,349 --> 00:39:29,520
kind of springboarding off of that

1248
00:39:32,950 --> 00:39:31,359
controversial line about

1249
00:39:35,270 --> 00:39:32,960
you know controlled experiments and

1250
00:39:37,109 --> 00:39:35,280
things valet seemed to be of the mind

1251
00:39:39,829 --> 00:39:37,119
that the full implications

1252
00:39:41,430 --> 00:39:39,839
of the pinnacle memorandum would only be

1253
00:39:42,870 --> 00:39:41,440
revealed with time

1254
00:39:44,470 --> 00:39:42,880
there were others who kind of thought

1255
00:39:45,589 --> 00:39:44,480
that this was a fairly mundane document

1256
00:39:46,230 --> 00:39:45,599
and of course one we've already

1257
00:39:48,150 --> 00:39:46,240
mentioned

1258
00:39:49,270 --> 00:39:48,160
had been barry greenwood and i want to

1259
00:39:51,829 --> 00:39:49,280
share a

1260
00:39:54,150 --> 00:39:51,839
bit of a correspondence that the the

1261
00:39:57,109 --> 00:39:54,160
computer ufo network website

1262
00:39:58,790 --> 00:39:57,119
actually uh features online where and

1263
00:40:00,310 --> 00:39:58,800
again you know you talk about like

1264
00:40:02,630 --> 00:40:00,320
just dialogue between titans in the

1265
00:40:04,230 --> 00:40:02,640
field here's barry greenwood and valet

1266
00:40:06,630 --> 00:40:04,240
going back and forth

1267
00:40:08,950 --> 00:40:06,640
about this memorandum i'll first quote

1268
00:40:10,550 --> 00:40:08,960
here uh briefly from valet

1269
00:40:12,470 --> 00:40:10,560
writing to another colleague and he

1270
00:40:14,069 --> 00:40:12,480
mentions that the question of the origin

1271
00:40:15,589 --> 00:40:14,079
of the document may be unimportant he

1272
00:40:16,069 --> 00:40:15,599
says perhaps the people who released it

1273
00:40:18,309 --> 00:40:16,079
will go

1274
00:40:19,670 --> 00:40:18,319
public eventually he says the best

1275
00:40:21,349 --> 00:40:19,680
course of action however would be to

1276
00:40:23,510 --> 00:40:21,359
seek access to the original document and

1277
00:40:25,030 --> 00:40:23,520
to others of the same vintage

1278
00:40:26,550 --> 00:40:25,040
and then he forwards along to his

1279
00:40:28,630 --> 00:40:26,560
colleague dale uh

1280
00:40:30,550 --> 00:40:28,640
the following statements from barry

1281
00:40:33,030 --> 00:40:30,560
greenwood

1282
00:40:33,829 --> 00:40:33,040
barry again gives us a lot of context

1283
00:40:35,349 --> 00:40:33,839
for things like

1284
00:40:36,950 --> 00:40:35,359
the project twinkle that are mentioned

1285
00:40:38,710 --> 00:40:36,960
in this document

1286
00:40:41,030 --> 00:40:38,720
and he says specifically at the outset

1287
00:40:43,109 --> 00:40:41,040
of his memo to valet

1288
00:40:44,309 --> 00:40:43,119
uh barry greenwood here it makes no

1289
00:40:45,990 --> 00:40:44,319
reference

1290
00:40:47,829 --> 00:40:46,000
this document to any recovered ufo

1291
00:40:49,109 --> 00:40:47,839
hardware at roswell or elsewhere or to

1292
00:40:50,950 --> 00:40:49,119
alien bodies he says the greater

1293
00:40:52,309 --> 00:40:50,960
significance of what it does say

1294
00:40:54,069 --> 00:40:52,319
oh i'm sorry i'm sorry let me back up

1295
00:40:56,069 --> 00:40:54,079
this isn't barry greenwood

1296
00:40:57,430 --> 00:40:56,079
this is valet riding to barry greenwood

1297
00:40:57,990 --> 00:40:57,440
in their correspondence let's start

1298
00:40:59,670 --> 00:40:58,000
there

1299
00:41:01,030 --> 00:40:59,680
so he is saying to barry greenwood the

1300
00:41:03,030 --> 00:41:01,040
greater significance of what this

1301
00:41:04,470 --> 00:41:03,040
document does say will slowly emerge in

1302
00:41:06,390 --> 00:41:04,480
the coming years as the overall

1303
00:41:08,150 --> 00:41:06,400
implications come to light

1304
00:41:10,230 --> 00:41:08,160
so valet points out to greenwood a few

1305
00:41:11,990 --> 00:41:10,240
things he says project twinkle and other

1306
00:41:13,510 --> 00:41:12,000
observational efforts by the military

1307
00:41:15,030 --> 00:41:13,520
which you mentioned in an effort to show

1308
00:41:17,510 --> 00:41:15,040
that pinnacle was only dusting off an

1309
00:41:20,230 --> 00:41:17,520
old idea were purely passive projects

1310
00:41:21,670 --> 00:41:20,240
in sharp contrast the pinnacle proposal

1311
00:41:23,510 --> 00:41:21,680
goes far beyond anything mentioned

1312
00:41:25,109 --> 00:41:23,520
before and daringly states that many

1313
00:41:25,670 --> 00:41:25,119
different types of aerial activity

1314
00:41:28,470 --> 00:41:25,680
should be

1315
00:41:30,230 --> 00:41:28,480
in any underlines this valet does

1316
00:41:30,870 --> 00:41:30,240
secretly and purposefully scheduled

1317
00:41:33,990 --> 00:41:30,880
within

1318
00:41:36,870 --> 00:41:34,000
the area now valet again commenting

1319
00:41:37,510 --> 00:41:36,880
on this says it is difficult to be more

1320
00:41:39,190 --> 00:41:37,520
clear

1321
00:41:40,870 --> 00:41:39,200
we are not talking simply about setting

1322
00:41:42,710 --> 00:41:40,880
up observation stations and cameras

1323
00:41:44,790 --> 00:41:42,720
we're talking about large-scale covert

1324
00:41:46,230 --> 00:41:44,800
simulation of ufo waves under military

1325
00:41:49,430 --> 00:41:46,240
control

1326
00:41:50,870 --> 00:41:49,440
so that is explicitly what valet was

1327
00:41:52,870 --> 00:41:50,880
concerned with and in his letter to

1328
00:41:55,270 --> 00:41:52,880
barry greenwood he says

1329
00:41:57,109 --> 00:41:55,280
this is what they seem to be describing

1330
00:41:58,150 --> 00:41:57,119
now again offering a bit of a different

1331
00:42:00,790 --> 00:41:58,160
perspective

1332
00:42:01,990 --> 00:42:00,800
my interpretation would have been that

1333
00:42:04,950 --> 00:42:02,000
the military if

1334
00:42:07,270 --> 00:42:04,960
they had based on the blue book data

1335
00:42:08,870 --> 00:42:07,280
what they thought were ufo hot spots

1336
00:42:10,710 --> 00:42:08,880
places where people thought they sell

1337
00:42:11,990 --> 00:42:10,720
they were able to see more ufos and

1338
00:42:13,750 --> 00:42:12,000
where more sightings appeared to

1339
00:42:15,190 --> 00:42:13,760
originate from

1340
00:42:17,670 --> 00:42:15,200
with little doubt the military would

1341
00:42:18,230 --> 00:42:17,680
have wanted to try and put aircraft out

1342
00:42:20,470 --> 00:42:18,240
there

1343
00:42:23,589 --> 00:42:20,480
or put objects that they might be able

1344
00:42:25,670 --> 00:42:23,599
to use to gauge how the public reacts

1345
00:42:27,190 --> 00:42:25,680
and that way they could see if people

1346
00:42:29,030 --> 00:42:27,200
again the benefit to me would be that

1347
00:42:30,309 --> 00:42:29,040
they would see how people respond

1348
00:42:31,910 --> 00:42:30,319
let's say they put up a weather balloon

1349
00:42:33,349 --> 00:42:31,920
and people go up there's another ufo and

1350
00:42:34,790 --> 00:42:33,359
we've seen them here before so we know

1351
00:42:37,030 --> 00:42:34,800
this one must be a ufo too it's

1352
00:42:38,390 --> 00:42:37,040
obviously a flying saucer

1353
00:42:39,430 --> 00:42:38,400
well the military if they knew what they

1354
00:42:40,790 --> 00:42:39,440
had put up in the air and that's how

1355
00:42:42,550 --> 00:42:40,800
people responded

1356
00:42:43,990 --> 00:42:42,560
they might you know come away from it

1357
00:42:45,990 --> 00:42:44,000
going okay well

1358
00:42:48,150 --> 00:42:46,000
you know we put a weather balloon up and

1359
00:42:49,510 --> 00:42:48,160
people acted exactly as they had 10

1360
00:42:51,109 --> 00:42:49,520
years ago when they had said they'd saw

1361
00:42:52,309 --> 00:42:51,119
a bunch of you know seen a bunch of ufos

1362
00:42:55,349 --> 00:42:52,319
in the same area so

1363
00:42:57,270 --> 00:42:55,359
we might glean from this that under

1364
00:43:00,069 --> 00:42:57,280
those circumstances in that area

1365
00:43:00,790 --> 00:43:00,079
people generally describe very prosaic

1366
00:43:03,030 --> 00:43:00,800
things

1367
00:43:04,870 --> 00:43:03,040
as being unidentified flying objects i i

1368
00:43:05,910 --> 00:43:04,880
would see that as being one potential

1369
00:43:07,349 --> 00:43:05,920
benefit

1370
00:43:09,510 --> 00:43:07,359
that the military might have derived

1371
00:43:12,150 --> 00:43:09,520
from carrying out these controlled

1372
00:43:13,829 --> 00:43:12,160
secret experiments right but again to

1373
00:43:15,510 --> 00:43:13,839
valet's point he's like yeah but if it's

1374
00:43:17,750 --> 00:43:15,520
controlled and it's secret and they are

1375
00:43:19,510 --> 00:43:17,760
essentially simulating a ufo wave they

1376
00:43:22,150 --> 00:43:19,520
are deceiving the public

1377
00:43:23,589 --> 00:43:22,160
and he seems to take issue with that his

1378
00:43:25,270 --> 00:43:23,599
next point

1379
00:43:27,349 --> 00:43:25,280
that he makes to bury greenwood and he

1380
00:43:29,190 --> 00:43:27,359
says this is the greatest implication

1381
00:43:30,550 --> 00:43:29,200
which i'll quote him here is perhaps not

1382
00:43:33,510 --> 00:43:30,560
obvious on first reading but which

1383
00:43:35,750 --> 00:43:33,520
amounts to a scandal of major proportion

1384
00:43:37,750 --> 00:43:35,760
in the eyes of any scientist he says has

1385
00:43:39,750 --> 00:43:37,760
to do with the outright manipulation of

1386
00:43:41,430 --> 00:43:39,760
the robertson panel

1387
00:43:43,349 --> 00:43:41,440
he says here is a special meeting of the

1388
00:43:44,950 --> 00:43:43,359
five most eminent scientists in the land

1389
00:43:46,470 --> 00:43:44,960
assembled by the government to discuss a

1390
00:43:48,470 --> 00:43:46,480
matter of national security

1391
00:43:50,069 --> 00:43:48,480
not only are they made or rather not

1392
00:43:51,750 --> 00:43:50,079
made aware of all the data

1393
00:43:54,150 --> 00:43:51,760
but another group has already decided

1394
00:43:55,190 --> 00:43:54,160
what can and cannot be discussed and he

1395
00:43:58,230 --> 00:43:55,200
again quoting

1396
00:44:00,550 --> 00:43:58,240
pentacle i.e cross so

1397
00:44:01,990 --> 00:44:00,560
uh valet says dr heineck categorically

1398
00:44:04,630 --> 00:44:02,000
stated to me that the panel was not

1399
00:44:07,910 --> 00:44:04,640
briefed about the pinnacle proposals

1400
00:44:09,270 --> 00:44:07,920
now again unpacking that aspect heinek's

1401
00:44:10,470 --> 00:44:09,280
upset because he sees this as

1402
00:44:13,510 --> 00:44:10,480
manipulation of

1403
00:44:14,950 --> 00:44:13,520
the cia sponsored robertson panel but

1404
00:44:16,790 --> 00:44:14,960
again my takeaway and i think this had

1405
00:44:19,190 --> 00:44:16,800
been barry greenwood's

1406
00:44:21,349 --> 00:44:19,200
would be well what they were saying was

1407
00:44:23,030 --> 00:44:21,359
we advise that you guys

1408
00:44:25,349 --> 00:44:23,040
postpone because we haven't finished the

1409
00:44:26,150 --> 00:44:25,359
study if we finish the study then you

1410
00:44:28,790 --> 00:44:26,160
guys can see

1411
00:44:30,230 --> 00:44:28,800
our results so you might call that

1412
00:44:30,950 --> 00:44:30,240
manipulation but again it would have

1413
00:44:32,870 --> 00:44:30,960
been

1414
00:44:34,550 --> 00:44:32,880
in my view to the to the best interest

1415
00:44:36,950 --> 00:44:34,560
of the robertson panel to hold off

1416
00:44:38,710 --> 00:44:36,960
until the battelle memorial institute

1417
00:44:40,230 --> 00:44:38,720
completed their study so i could see it

1418
00:44:42,630 --> 00:44:40,240
from that perspective

1419
00:44:43,270 --> 00:44:42,640
and again i might disagree with valet on

1420
00:44:44,550 --> 00:44:43,280
that point

1421
00:44:46,710 --> 00:44:44,560
there's little i disagree with him on

1422
00:44:47,910 --> 00:44:46,720
i'll mind you but again that's one point

1423
00:44:49,670 --> 00:44:47,920
i'll take

1424
00:44:50,870 --> 00:44:49,680
and so but again he also says

1425
00:44:52,630 --> 00:44:50,880
nonetheless though that heineken

1426
00:44:54,230 --> 00:44:52,640
categorically stated to him that the

1427
00:44:55,510 --> 00:44:54,240
panel was not briefed about the pinnacle

1428
00:44:56,950 --> 00:44:55,520
proposals

1429
00:44:59,270 --> 00:44:56,960
the reason that might be of course had

1430
00:45:00,950 --> 00:44:59,280
been that the battelle

1431
00:45:02,550 --> 00:45:00,960
memorial institute had not finished

1432
00:45:04,710 --> 00:45:02,560
their study so why would

1433
00:45:05,990 --> 00:45:04,720
robertson's panel have been briefed

1434
00:45:07,589 --> 00:45:06,000
until that point

1435
00:45:09,670 --> 00:45:07,599
if anything it seems based on the fact

1436
00:45:11,510 --> 00:45:09,680
that the memorandum exists

1437
00:45:13,109 --> 00:45:11,520
that their desire would have been to be

1438
00:45:14,309 --> 00:45:13,119
able to brief robertson but they didn't

1439
00:45:15,670 --> 00:45:14,319
have anything to brief them with they

1440
00:45:16,470 --> 00:45:15,680
said you know we aren't done with our

1441
00:45:18,470 --> 00:45:16,480
study

1442
00:45:20,390 --> 00:45:18,480
give us some time if if you guys can

1443
00:45:21,589 --> 00:45:20,400
wait then we can brief you

1444
00:45:22,950 --> 00:45:21,599
so if they weren't briefed it was

1445
00:45:25,270 --> 00:45:22,960
probably because battelle hadn't

1446
00:45:28,470 --> 00:45:25,280
finished the study yet at that point

1447
00:45:30,710 --> 00:45:28,480
so patel procrastinators man i

1448
00:45:32,069 --> 00:45:30,720
tell you we're looking for engineering

1449
00:45:33,829 --> 00:45:32,079
points again

1450
00:45:35,670 --> 00:45:33,839
and you can kind of see why this became

1451
00:45:37,589 --> 00:45:35,680
such a big deal because

1452
00:45:39,829 --> 00:45:37,599
at that time you know barry greenwood

1453
00:45:40,550 --> 00:45:39,839
with the just cause newsletter he was

1454
00:45:42,870 --> 00:45:40,560
doing he had

1455
00:45:44,630 --> 00:45:42,880
again with larry fawcett published the

1456
00:45:47,190 --> 00:45:44,640
book at that time called

1457
00:45:47,990 --> 00:45:47,200
um clear intent but the same book you

1458
00:45:51,109 --> 00:45:48,000
can find now

1459
00:45:51,430 --> 00:45:51,119
under the title the ufo cover-up um he

1460
00:45:53,510 --> 00:45:51,440
then

1461
00:45:54,870 --> 00:45:53,520
began to publish another newsletter

1462
00:45:56,390 --> 00:45:54,880
barry greenwood called the ufo

1463
00:45:57,910 --> 00:45:56,400
historical review

1464
00:45:59,750 --> 00:45:57,920
and you can find all these online by the

1465
00:45:59,990 --> 00:45:59,760
way if you go to the greenwood archive

1466
00:46:02,309 --> 00:46:00,000
just

1467
00:46:04,950 --> 00:46:02,319
go on online and search for the barry

1468
00:46:06,309 --> 00:46:04,960
greenwood or just greenwood ufo archive

1469
00:46:07,910 --> 00:46:06,319
and you'll find the website it's a very

1470
00:46:10,230 --> 00:46:07,920
simple blog website but barry has

1471
00:46:12,950 --> 00:46:10,240
uploaded as pdfs a lot of these

1472
00:46:14,150 --> 00:46:12,960
newsletters so you can go online and you

1473
00:46:15,510 --> 00:46:14,160
can read all of these and if you're

1474
00:46:16,309 --> 00:46:15,520
interested in the history of this

1475
00:46:18,230 --> 00:46:16,319
subject like i

1476
00:46:20,710 --> 00:46:18,240
am and obviously i am the kind of guy

1477
00:46:23,589 --> 00:46:20,720
who is this pandemic has ensued i have

1478
00:46:25,109 --> 00:46:23,599
been reading a lot about the history of

1479
00:46:25,829 --> 00:46:25,119
years i mean you know it's nothing

1480
00:46:27,829 --> 00:46:25,839
different

1481
00:46:29,430 --> 00:46:27,839
but i highly recommend barry greenwood's

1482
00:46:30,309 --> 00:46:29,440
work he is one of the most diligent

1483
00:46:33,109 --> 00:46:30,319
researchers

1484
00:46:33,990 --> 00:46:33,119
and again he isn't he is a documents guy

1485
00:46:36,309 --> 00:46:34,000
you know

1486
00:46:38,069 --> 00:46:36,319
a historically minded researcher who

1487
00:46:40,630 --> 00:46:38,079
works with documents

1488
00:46:41,990 --> 00:46:40,640
valet is also someone who has worked a

1489
00:46:43,910 --> 00:46:42,000
lot with documents over the years having

1490
00:46:44,790 --> 00:46:43,920
been one of the first scientists who had

1491
00:46:46,710 --> 00:46:44,800
access

1492
00:46:48,150 --> 00:46:46,720
he thought initially to the majority of

1493
00:46:48,710 --> 00:46:48,160
the blue book documents and later he

1494
00:46:50,630 --> 00:46:48,720
found

1495
00:46:52,630 --> 00:46:50,640
maybe not as many as there actually were

1496
00:46:54,390 --> 00:46:52,640
in existence but he's a scientist and a

1497
00:46:55,510 --> 00:46:54,400
person who tries to apply the scientific

1498
00:46:58,550 --> 00:46:55,520
method toward a very

1499
00:46:59,910 --> 00:46:58,560
novel and perplexing topic and this is

1500
00:47:01,750 --> 00:46:59,920
really rather than a right

1501
00:47:03,190 --> 00:47:01,760
versus wrong you know greenwood was

1502
00:47:04,950 --> 00:47:03,200
right no valet was

1503
00:47:07,670 --> 00:47:04,960
you know this is more like two different

1504
00:47:09,589 --> 00:47:07,680
areas you know converging trying to find

1505
00:47:11,190 --> 00:47:09,599
some semblance of truth

1506
00:47:12,790 --> 00:47:11,200
and although i think that barry's

1507
00:47:14,230 --> 00:47:12,800
interpretation really of the history of

1508
00:47:16,230 --> 00:47:14,240
the documents is correct

1509
00:47:18,390 --> 00:47:16,240
again valet's experience as a scientist

1510
00:47:20,230 --> 00:47:18,400
working with heinek at that time

1511
00:47:21,750 --> 00:47:20,240
informed his opinions about it and he

1512
00:47:22,870 --> 00:47:21,760
wasn't entirely wrong about some of his

1513
00:47:24,390 --> 00:47:22,880
takeaways about

1514
00:47:26,630 --> 00:47:24,400
the nature of government and its

1515
00:47:30,069 --> 00:47:26,640
attitudes especially its secrecy

1516
00:47:31,190 --> 00:47:30,079
toward the uap subject yeah absolutely i

1517
00:47:33,589 --> 00:47:31,200
think you're right i think

1518
00:47:34,390 --> 00:47:33,599
while one looks at it one way another's

1519
00:47:36,069 --> 00:47:34,400
gonna look in it

1520
00:47:37,670 --> 00:47:36,079
another way and we always hear with

1521
00:47:39,829 --> 00:47:37,680
these documents is

1522
00:47:41,589 --> 00:47:39,839
read between the lines so many people

1523
00:47:43,109 --> 00:47:41,599
say these types of things so

1524
00:47:44,710 --> 00:47:43,119
of course they're going to interpret

1525
00:47:45,109 --> 00:47:44,720
them differently and i think you're

1526
00:47:48,309 --> 00:47:45,119
right

1527
00:47:51,349 --> 00:47:48,319
when it comes to this it's a

1528
00:47:51,990 --> 00:47:51,359
fascinating historical piece that we

1529
00:47:54,950 --> 00:47:52,000
have

1530
00:47:56,790 --> 00:47:54,960
in this entire ufo thing that we will

1531
00:47:57,190 --> 00:47:56,800
probably debate till the end of time but

1532
00:47:59,430 --> 00:47:57,200
uh

1533
00:48:01,510 --> 00:47:59,440
i found it super interesting i'm so

1534
00:48:02,870 --> 00:48:01,520
happy that you were able to kind of walk

1535
00:48:04,549 --> 00:48:02,880
us through this because

1536
00:48:06,549 --> 00:48:04,559
it's so easy for these things to get

1537
00:48:08,390 --> 00:48:06,559
overlooked micah that the public would

1538
00:48:08,950 --> 00:48:08,400
never even know this existed i didn't

1539
00:48:11,430 --> 00:48:08,960
know

1540
00:48:12,470 --> 00:48:11,440
and the minute i said whoa did anyone

1541
00:48:14,069 --> 00:48:12,480
know that there was a

1542
00:48:15,910 --> 00:48:14,079
project running parallel the project

1543
00:48:16,790 --> 00:48:15,920
blue book and every everyone starts

1544
00:48:18,870 --> 00:48:16,800
commenting on

1545
00:48:20,390 --> 00:48:18,880
you know my social media like oh do you

1546
00:48:22,470 --> 00:48:20,400
mean stork or do you mean

1547
00:48:23,589 --> 00:48:22,480
uh pentacle and i'm like no no no

1548
00:48:26,790 --> 00:48:23,599
something else but

1549
00:48:29,109 --> 00:48:26,800
lo and behold that's what it was so um i

1550
00:48:31,910 --> 00:48:29,119
definitely got taken to school on this

1551
00:48:34,230 --> 00:48:31,920
one and um

1552
00:48:35,910 --> 00:48:34,240
that's all right that's all right look

1553
00:48:37,510 --> 00:48:35,920
you know there's this attitude that oh

1554
00:48:39,910 --> 00:48:37,520
you don't know this you don't know that

1555
00:48:41,190 --> 00:48:39,920
look we're all in this together to try

1556
00:48:43,109 --> 00:48:41,200
and educate one another

1557
00:48:44,950 --> 00:48:43,119
i get schooled frequently by my friends

1558
00:48:46,309 --> 00:48:44,960
and not just in the ufo field you know

1559
00:48:48,470 --> 00:48:46,319
try hanging out with guys like tim

1560
00:48:50,309 --> 00:48:48,480
mcmillan you know or jason pen trail

1561
00:48:51,829 --> 00:48:50,319
you know for a while i mean you'll learn

1562
00:48:53,750 --> 00:48:51,839
really quickly um

1563
00:48:56,150 --> 00:48:53,760
that yeah you know there are limits to

1564
00:48:57,910 --> 00:48:56,160
what any one individual can know

1565
00:48:59,349 --> 00:48:57,920
and i hope also you know with all of my

1566
00:49:00,790 --> 00:48:59,359
colleagues to be able to fill that gap

1567
00:49:02,470 --> 00:49:00,800
for them at times too so

1568
00:49:03,829 --> 00:49:02,480
there's no shame in not knowing

1569
00:49:05,510 --> 00:49:03,839
everything and

1570
00:49:07,190 --> 00:49:05,520
you know anyone who acts like oh you

1571
00:49:09,589 --> 00:49:07,200
didn't know this or that you know look

1572
00:49:11,349 --> 00:49:09,599
everyone at some point is gonna be

1573
00:49:13,109 --> 00:49:11,359
afforded that opportunity to be told

1574
00:49:14,549 --> 00:49:13,119
something they had no idea about so

1575
00:49:16,710 --> 00:49:14,559
again no shame right there man we're all

1576
00:49:18,549 --> 00:49:16,720
in this to learn that's such a

1577
00:49:19,750 --> 00:49:18,559
such a good point brother and i think

1578
00:49:21,510 --> 00:49:19,760
it's important too

1579
00:49:23,990 --> 00:49:21,520
to look at the history of these things

1580
00:49:25,750 --> 00:49:24,000
because then we can start to see

1581
00:49:27,990 --> 00:49:25,760
how it bleeds into what we're dealing

1582
00:49:30,230 --> 00:49:28,000
with today and i do have some listener

1583
00:49:32,549 --> 00:49:30,240
questions kind of relating to pentacle

1584
00:49:34,150 --> 00:49:32,559
and some not so much but uh these should

1585
00:49:36,150 --> 00:49:34,160
be fun because uh

1586
00:49:37,670 --> 00:49:36,160
we have a lot going on in the ufo world

1587
00:49:41,510 --> 00:49:37,680
right now upcoming

1588
00:49:44,870 --> 00:49:41,520
uh uap task force by the pentagon

1589
00:49:45,430 --> 00:49:44,880
um and we have some some bombshells that

1590
00:49:49,190 --> 00:49:45,440
are

1591
00:49:52,309 --> 00:49:49,200
as the internet

1592
00:49:55,030 --> 00:49:52,319
and social media has told us um

1593
00:49:57,829 --> 00:49:55,040
we will not comment on that just yet but

1594
00:49:58,710 --> 00:49:57,839
um let's get to these listener questions

1595
00:50:01,750 --> 00:49:58,720
uh mieska

1596
00:50:04,630 --> 00:50:01,760
on facebook asks what criteria do

1597
00:50:05,510 --> 00:50:04,640
you micah use when trying to decipher a

1598
00:50:08,150 --> 00:50:05,520
report or

1599
00:50:09,829 --> 00:50:08,160
a memorandum's veracity if and when they

1600
00:50:11,510 --> 00:50:09,839
are revealed

1601
00:50:12,950 --> 00:50:11,520
yeah okay well the first and most

1602
00:50:14,790 --> 00:50:12,960
important thing that you must do if

1603
00:50:16,470 --> 00:50:14,800
you're looking at a document

1604
00:50:19,109 --> 00:50:16,480
be able to establish the chain of

1605
00:50:21,510 --> 00:50:19,119
custody and again you actually see that

1606
00:50:23,190 --> 00:50:21,520
at the center for ufo or rather the the

1607
00:50:25,990 --> 00:50:23,200
computer ufo

1608
00:50:26,630 --> 00:50:26,000
um organization website there coupon

1609
00:50:27,670 --> 00:50:26,640
again it's

1610
00:50:29,430 --> 00:50:27,680
trying to keep up with all these

1611
00:50:31,270 --> 00:50:29,440
acronyms coupon is not as i understand

1612
00:50:32,069 --> 00:50:31,280
an active organization any longer but

1613
00:50:33,910 --> 00:50:32,079
the website

1614
00:50:35,910 --> 00:50:33,920
remains online it was one of the early

1615
00:50:37,750 --> 00:50:35,920
online efforts to try and get documents

1616
00:50:41,030 --> 00:50:37,760
online and so again you've got mufon

1617
00:50:42,549 --> 00:50:41,040
they've got coupon easily

1618
00:50:44,470 --> 00:50:42,559
mixed up with the center for ufo studies

1619
00:50:45,910 --> 00:50:44,480
so anyway coupon which is the computer

1620
00:50:47,589 --> 00:50:45,920
ufo network

1621
00:50:48,950 --> 00:50:47,599
they actually stayed in their page about

1622
00:50:51,030 --> 00:50:48,960
the pinnacle memorandum which i'm sure

1623
00:50:53,750 --> 00:50:51,040
is oft visited because it is one of the

1624
00:50:56,069 --> 00:50:53,760
only links online where the actual

1625
00:50:58,390 --> 00:50:56,079
document can be written its entirety

1626
00:50:59,190 --> 00:50:58,400
you know they state that this came to

1627
00:51:01,270 --> 00:50:59,200
light

1628
00:51:03,270 --> 00:51:01,280
through but you know i don't know that

1629
00:51:04,790 --> 00:51:03,280
they ever really state exactly who

1630
00:51:07,109 --> 00:51:04,800
released it but in the

1631
00:51:08,630 --> 00:51:07,119
dialogue that they include in exchanges

1632
00:51:11,349 --> 00:51:08,640
between barry greenwood and

1633
00:51:12,790 --> 00:51:11,359
jacques valet valet says we hope at some

1634
00:51:14,230 --> 00:51:12,800
point that that will come to light he

1635
00:51:15,670 --> 00:51:14,240
says i have a

1636
00:51:17,990 --> 00:51:15,680
suspicion about who might have released

1637
00:51:18,950 --> 00:51:18,000
these documents so at the time that this

1638
00:51:20,549 --> 00:51:18,960
was posted

1639
00:51:22,069 --> 00:51:20,559
valet didn't even know exactly how it

1640
00:51:23,430 --> 00:51:22,079
had come to light

1641
00:51:25,030 --> 00:51:23,440
but it was later confirmed as i

1642
00:51:25,589 --> 00:51:25,040
understand it and i think it had

1643
00:51:27,910 --> 00:51:25,599
actually been

1644
00:51:29,750 --> 00:51:27,920
barry greenwood who probably was able to

1645
00:51:31,589 --> 00:51:29,760
obtain a copy of the memo through

1646
00:51:33,670 --> 00:51:31,599
official channels that would be through

1647
00:51:34,950 --> 00:51:33,680
you know filing a foia request and

1648
00:51:36,549 --> 00:51:34,960
that's one way that you would do this

1649
00:51:37,910 --> 00:51:36,559
again if someone says here's a document

1650
00:51:39,910 --> 00:51:37,920
and this is what it claims

1651
00:51:41,990 --> 00:51:39,920
make sure that you can establish the

1652
00:51:43,829 --> 00:51:42,000
providence of that document

1653
00:51:45,510 --> 00:51:43,839
even if that means and you'll often find

1654
00:51:47,190 --> 00:51:45,520
this you know when i file a freedom of

1655
00:51:48,069 --> 00:51:47,200
information act request often what i'll

1656
00:51:50,309 --> 00:51:48,079
do

1657
00:51:51,829 --> 00:51:50,319
is i will go first before i file

1658
00:51:52,790 --> 00:51:51,839
anything and i will of course you want

1659
00:51:55,349 --> 00:51:52,800
to go to the

1660
00:51:56,549 --> 00:51:55,359
respective government agency go to their

1661
00:51:58,309 --> 00:51:56,559
online reading room

1662
00:51:59,829 --> 00:51:58,319
uh you know the fbi has one called the

1663
00:52:01,750 --> 00:51:59,839
vault cia

1664
00:52:03,030 --> 00:52:01,760
also has a document reading room where

1665
00:52:04,630 --> 00:52:03,040
you can go online and you can see

1666
00:52:05,910 --> 00:52:04,640
documents that have been posted online

1667
00:52:08,790 --> 00:52:05,920
that already

1668
00:52:09,349 --> 00:52:08,800
have been released and often they will

1669
00:52:11,349 --> 00:52:09,359
link to

1670
00:52:12,710 --> 00:52:11,359
popular documents or documents that are

1671
00:52:13,990 --> 00:52:12,720
frequently requested

1672
00:52:15,510 --> 00:52:14,000
make sure that what you're looking for

1673
00:52:17,190 --> 00:52:15,520
hasn't already been posted online that

1674
00:52:19,190 --> 00:52:17,200
can save you some time and trouble

1675
00:52:20,230 --> 00:52:19,200
but something else that you might also

1676
00:52:23,030 --> 00:52:20,240
look for is

1677
00:52:24,630 --> 00:52:23,040
foia logs if you can get access to the

1678
00:52:26,870 --> 00:52:24,640
foia logs for a year

1679
00:52:28,069 --> 00:52:26,880
or for several years you can find out

1680
00:52:29,589 --> 00:52:28,079
what kinds of things

1681
00:52:31,030 --> 00:52:29,599
other people have been asking for and

1682
00:52:32,710 --> 00:52:31,040
honestly sometimes reading through the

1683
00:52:34,309 --> 00:52:32,720
foia logs can be as entertaining as

1684
00:52:35,910 --> 00:52:34,319
reading documents themselves

1685
00:52:38,390 --> 00:52:35,920
because you see all the crazy crackpot

1686
00:52:40,950 --> 00:52:38,400
stuff that people go and ask for

1687
00:52:42,950 --> 00:52:40,960
but um if you can't find the foia logs

1688
00:52:44,790 --> 00:52:42,960
online

1689
00:52:46,950 --> 00:52:44,800
then one thing you can do is you can

1690
00:52:49,270 --> 00:52:46,960
foia the foia logs you can

1691
00:52:50,390 --> 00:52:49,280
file a freedom freedom of information

1692
00:52:53,430 --> 00:52:50,400
act request

1693
00:52:54,470 --> 00:52:53,440
for the actual foia logs and then you

1694
00:52:55,829 --> 00:52:54,480
can access

1695
00:52:57,910 --> 00:52:55,839
information about what has already been

1696
00:52:59,349 --> 00:52:57,920
asked for then something i've seen

1697
00:53:00,390 --> 00:52:59,359
journalists do this when you read the

1698
00:53:03,589 --> 00:53:00,400
foia logs

1699
00:53:05,270 --> 00:53:03,599
journalists will actually say um i'm

1700
00:53:07,829 --> 00:53:05,280
you know respectfully requesting all

1701
00:53:09,109 --> 00:53:07,839
documents filed by said individual

1702
00:53:11,109 --> 00:53:09,119
and so if someone has come forward and

1703
00:53:12,870 --> 00:53:11,119
said that they've gotten a document

1704
00:53:15,030 --> 00:53:12,880
you know a journalist or a journalistic

1705
00:53:17,430 --> 00:53:15,040
organization can go and foia what they

1706
00:53:19,030 --> 00:53:17,440
requested and then hopefully the same

1707
00:53:21,270 --> 00:53:19,040
documents if they were supplied to one

1708
00:53:24,069 --> 00:53:21,280
individual will be supplied to another

1709
00:53:25,670 --> 00:53:24,079
and a lot of uh you know websites blogs

1710
00:53:26,870 --> 00:53:25,680
news sources outlets you know one for

1711
00:53:28,549 --> 00:53:26,880
example that a friend of mine brett

1712
00:53:30,549 --> 00:53:28,559
tingley writes for is the war zone

1713
00:53:31,990 --> 00:53:30,559
headed by tyrogaway

1714
00:53:34,150 --> 00:53:32,000
those guys won't publish anything even

1715
00:53:36,309 --> 00:53:34,160
if the documents already exist

1716
00:53:37,430 --> 00:53:36,319
unless they can independently verify the

1717
00:53:38,950 --> 00:53:37,440
documents

1718
00:53:41,030 --> 00:53:38,960
through their own establishment of that

1719
00:53:42,870 --> 00:53:41,040
chain of custody so to the question

1720
00:53:45,190 --> 00:53:42,880
one of the best ways you can you know

1721
00:53:46,309 --> 00:53:45,200
again assure yourself of the veracity of

1722
00:53:48,230 --> 00:53:46,319
the documents

1723
00:53:49,910 --> 00:53:48,240
if it's posted online i don't care if

1724
00:53:51,510 --> 00:53:49,920
it's already been reported

1725
00:53:53,109 --> 00:53:51,520
i mean there was an instance like this

1726
00:53:55,910 --> 00:53:53,119
earlier this year where yahoo news

1727
00:53:56,549 --> 00:53:55,920
reported on something in a leaked fbi

1728
00:53:58,390 --> 00:53:56,559
memo

1729
00:54:00,630 --> 00:53:58,400
when it appeared online what did i do i

1730
00:54:02,230 --> 00:54:00,640
was curious i went to the fbi i foied

1731
00:54:03,190 --> 00:54:02,240
the document that was already available

1732
00:54:04,630 --> 00:54:03,200
online

1733
00:54:05,910 --> 00:54:04,640
and that is certainly one of the best

1734
00:54:06,870 --> 00:54:05,920
ways in my opinion that you can

1735
00:54:09,349 --> 00:54:06,880
establish

1736
00:54:09,990 --> 00:54:09,359
that chain of custody uh certainly

1737
00:54:11,910 --> 00:54:10,000
really probably

1738
00:54:13,109 --> 00:54:11,920
the most accurate way too and that's

1739
00:54:14,710 --> 00:54:13,119
definitely going to help you

1740
00:54:16,230 --> 00:54:14,720
assure yourself of the fact that the

1741
00:54:17,670 --> 00:54:16,240
document in question that you have at

1742
00:54:20,150 --> 00:54:17,680
least what portions are

1743
00:54:21,670 --> 00:54:20,160
reasonably exempt and non-redacted uh

1744
00:54:23,430 --> 00:54:21,680
actually are available to the public and

1745
00:54:25,589 --> 00:54:23,440
where they came from

1746
00:54:28,069 --> 00:54:25,599
absolutely and like you mentioned as

1747
00:54:30,230 --> 00:54:28,079
well our good friend and colleague

1748
00:54:32,150 --> 00:54:30,240
john greenwald you can go to his website

1749
00:54:34,630 --> 00:54:32,160
as well theblackvault.com

1750
00:54:35,750 --> 00:54:34,640
and just go to the search engine right

1751
00:54:36,870 --> 00:54:35,760
on the website

1752
00:54:38,710 --> 00:54:36,880
and if you have something you're

1753
00:54:39,109 --> 00:54:38,720
interested in type it in see what comes

1754
00:54:40,390 --> 00:54:39,119
up

1755
00:54:42,150 --> 00:54:40,400
i mean we're talking millions and

1756
00:54:43,349 --> 00:54:42,160
millions of pages of declassified

1757
00:54:45,589 --> 00:54:43,359
documents so

1758
00:54:47,190 --> 00:54:45,599
um yeah i would have to agree he's just

1759
00:54:48,710 --> 00:54:47,200
a monster and again actually just let me

1760
00:54:50,309 --> 00:54:48,720
add to that in addition to the reading

1761
00:54:51,589 --> 00:54:50,319
rooms at the respective websites yeah

1762
00:54:53,109 --> 00:54:51,599
don't forget to go and check the black

1763
00:54:54,549 --> 00:54:53,119
vault too because john may already have

1764
00:54:56,390 --> 00:54:54,559
asked for those documents

1765
00:54:57,670 --> 00:54:56,400
again insider knowledge a lot of people

1766
00:55:00,470 --> 00:54:57,680
aren't aware of this even though it's

1767
00:55:02,390 --> 00:55:00,480
well known but the bigfoot file that the

1768
00:55:03,750 --> 00:55:02,400
fbi released a few years ago

1769
00:55:06,150 --> 00:55:03,760
you know where peter byrne who i

1770
00:55:07,270 --> 00:55:06,160
interviewed had actually uh sent a hair

1771
00:55:09,349 --> 00:55:07,280
sample to the fbi

1772
00:55:10,870 --> 00:55:09,359
and their forensic laboratory analyzed

1773
00:55:13,109 --> 00:55:10,880
this for him i think it came back it was

1774
00:55:15,030 --> 00:55:13,119
dear not surprising but

1775
00:55:16,789 --> 00:55:15,040
john greenwald got those documents

1776
00:55:19,030 --> 00:55:16,799
before the fbi

1777
00:55:20,950 --> 00:55:19,040
subsequently after their release posted

1778
00:55:21,670 --> 00:55:20,960
them on their reading room and then when

1779
00:55:23,190 --> 00:55:21,680
journalists

1780
00:55:25,430 --> 00:55:23,200
saw them at the reading room it was big

1781
00:55:26,870 --> 00:55:25,440
news but john had posted the files like

1782
00:55:29,109 --> 00:55:26,880
a year earlier because he was the one

1783
00:55:32,309 --> 00:55:29,119
that requested and got him

1784
00:55:34,950 --> 00:55:32,319
boom there you go that's john knowing

1785
00:55:37,589 --> 00:55:34,960
stuff before the fbi i love it i love it

1786
00:55:38,549 --> 00:55:37,599
um all right well daniel on facebook

1787
00:55:40,150 --> 00:55:38,559
asks micah

1788
00:55:41,990 --> 00:55:40,160
do you think this has been the same

1789
00:55:43,910 --> 00:55:42,000
secret study all along

1790
00:55:45,270 --> 00:55:43,920
or are different agencies doing their

1791
00:55:47,750 --> 00:55:45,280
own secret studies

1792
00:55:49,990 --> 00:55:47,760
at different times also will anything be

1793
00:55:52,390 --> 00:55:50,000
released to the public from the new uap

1794
00:55:53,430 --> 00:55:52,400
task force these are great questions and

1795
00:55:56,789 --> 00:55:53,440
kind of what i

1796
00:55:59,030 --> 00:55:56,799
was thinking for pentagon and the uh

1797
00:55:59,829 --> 00:55:59,040
project stork how this would bleed into

1798
00:56:03,510 --> 00:55:59,839
today

1799
00:56:07,430 --> 00:56:03,520
i mean do you think between blue book

1800
00:56:08,710 --> 00:56:07,440
and uh atip that battelle was still

1801
00:56:11,030 --> 00:56:08,720
doing their studies

1802
00:56:12,950 --> 00:56:11,040
uh then specifically or do you think

1803
00:56:14,470 --> 00:56:12,960
there are projects going on constantly

1804
00:56:17,190 --> 00:56:14,480
when it comes to ufos

1805
00:56:20,230 --> 00:56:17,200
in the government study of these uh not

1806
00:56:24,230 --> 00:56:22,069
that's you know it's a bit of a complex

1807
00:56:25,349 --> 00:56:24,240
question you know what i would say is

1808
00:56:27,349 --> 00:56:25,359
that

1809
00:56:28,789 --> 00:56:27,359
we have to define what we mean by a

1810
00:56:31,109 --> 00:56:28,799
study for instance

1811
00:56:32,390 --> 00:56:31,119
while blue book was underway there were

1812
00:56:34,710 --> 00:56:32,400
two

1813
00:56:35,990 --> 00:56:34,720
ufo investigative studies i guess you

1814
00:56:38,789 --> 00:56:36,000
might call them that or you might call

1815
00:56:41,030 --> 00:56:38,799
them research efforts or projects

1816
00:56:42,150 --> 00:56:41,040
that were initiated uh during the

1817
00:56:44,549 --> 00:56:42,160
vietnam

1818
00:56:46,870 --> 00:56:44,559
you know period uh and these actually

1819
00:56:49,390 --> 00:56:46,880
overseas in the midst of the conflict

1820
00:56:51,109 --> 00:56:49,400
these i think occurred in the summer of

1821
00:56:53,990 --> 00:56:51,119
1968 i believe

1822
00:56:56,309 --> 00:56:54,000
or maybe 67 and they were called have

1823
00:56:59,589 --> 00:56:56,319
fear and lethal chaser

1824
00:57:02,549 --> 00:56:59,599
these were very very sophisticated

1825
00:57:04,630 --> 00:57:02,559
um uh instrumental arrays that were

1826
00:57:05,750 --> 00:57:04,640
instituted on the ground in order to try

1827
00:57:09,270 --> 00:57:05,760
and

1828
00:57:11,030 --> 00:57:09,280
um analyze unidentified aircraft that

1829
00:57:12,870 --> 00:57:11,040
were being observed by u.s

1830
00:57:15,430 --> 00:57:12,880
troops over there in the demilitarized

1831
00:57:16,309 --> 00:57:15,440
zone okay during the vietnam conflict

1832
00:57:17,829 --> 00:57:16,319
and uh

1833
00:57:19,750 --> 00:57:17,839
i learned about these documents they

1834
00:57:21,750 --> 00:57:19,760
were released as a result of

1835
00:57:23,349 --> 00:57:21,760
uh you know military i guess they were

1836
00:57:25,190 --> 00:57:23,359
called um

1837
00:57:26,789 --> 00:57:25,200
lessons learned and people who fought a

1838
00:57:28,549 --> 00:57:26,799
lot of you know foia requests for

1839
00:57:29,750 --> 00:57:28,559
documents with relation to military

1840
00:57:31,589 --> 00:57:29,760
history are probably familiar with

1841
00:57:34,470 --> 00:57:31,599
lessons learned reports

1842
00:57:34,870 --> 00:57:34,480
um these uh were obtained i believe by

1843
00:57:38,789 --> 00:57:34,880
paul

1844
00:57:40,950 --> 00:57:38,799
know brought them to my attention

1845
00:57:43,030 --> 00:57:40,960
and he has a couple of blogs on his

1846
00:57:45,349 --> 00:57:43,040
fantastic website ufo's documenting the

1847
00:57:48,309 --> 00:57:45,359
abs uh the evidence it's his blog

1848
00:57:49,670 --> 00:57:48,319
uh mr dean has done a great job uh

1849
00:57:51,109 --> 00:57:49,680
reporting on that he and i've talked

1850
00:57:52,630 --> 00:57:51,119
pretty extensively about it too on the

1851
00:57:53,750 --> 00:57:52,640
phone and also he came on my show at one

1852
00:57:55,349 --> 00:57:53,760
point and talked about it but you know

1853
00:57:57,829 --> 00:57:55,359
paul and i keep in touch

1854
00:57:58,470 --> 00:57:57,839
but um you know again these were very

1855
00:58:00,630 --> 00:57:58,480
limited in

1856
00:58:03,109 --> 00:58:00,640
in scope but basically the story was

1857
00:58:05,349 --> 00:58:03,119
that people first were seeing these

1858
00:58:07,589 --> 00:58:05,359
objects egg-shaped objects not unlike

1859
00:58:08,789 --> 00:58:07,599
the tic tac from the famous 2004 nimitz

1860
00:58:10,470 --> 00:58:08,799
incident

1861
00:58:11,829 --> 00:58:10,480
and seeing these over the militarized

1862
00:58:13,030 --> 00:58:11,839
zone people were saying you know are

1863
00:58:14,470 --> 00:58:13,040
these viet cong

1864
00:58:16,309 --> 00:58:14,480
aircraft or something what are we

1865
00:58:17,109 --> 00:58:16,319
observing here it was quickly determined

1866
00:58:18,789 --> 00:58:17,119
that these were not

1867
00:58:20,549 --> 00:58:18,799
the enemies and they certainly were not

1868
00:58:21,670 --> 00:58:20,559
ours and so we were trying to identify

1869
00:58:24,950 --> 00:58:21,680
what they were

1870
00:58:27,829 --> 00:58:24,960
and so uh you know telescopes lasers

1871
00:58:28,789 --> 00:58:27,839
um radio uh radar a lot of different

1872
00:58:31,109 --> 00:58:28,799
kinds of inter

1873
00:58:32,309 --> 00:58:31,119
instrumentation as well as mobile units

1874
00:58:34,150 --> 00:58:32,319
which were essentially mounted on

1875
00:58:35,910 --> 00:58:34,160
backpacks and used by

1876
00:58:37,510 --> 00:58:35,920
uh you know american servicemen there on

1877
00:58:39,510 --> 00:58:37,520
the ground were instituted throughout

1878
00:58:42,150 --> 00:58:39,520
the summer of that year to try and

1879
00:58:43,750 --> 00:58:42,160
uh identify what these objects were they

1880
00:58:45,190 --> 00:58:43,760
made no sound they moved very quickly

1881
00:58:47,990 --> 00:58:45,200
they sometimes produced a glue

1882
00:58:49,589 --> 00:58:48,000
a bluish glow we never determined what

1883
00:58:52,309 --> 00:58:49,599
they were big surprise huh

1884
00:58:53,750 --> 00:58:52,319
but based on the descriptions of ufo

1885
00:58:55,430 --> 00:58:53,760
sightings from during the vietnam

1886
00:58:56,069 --> 00:58:55,440
conflict i mean it sounds very much like

1887
00:58:58,309 --> 00:58:56,079
tic tac

1888
00:58:59,750 --> 00:58:58,319
type aircraft were being observed during

1889
00:59:01,030 --> 00:58:59,760
that conflict

1890
00:59:03,270 --> 00:59:01,040
and that's very interesting to me but

1891
00:59:05,990 --> 00:59:03,280
again to the point

1892
00:59:07,670 --> 00:59:06,000
this was a limited study which occurred

1893
00:59:08,549 --> 00:59:07,680
during the blue book years but which did

1894
00:59:11,030 --> 00:59:08,559
not have

1895
00:59:12,390 --> 00:59:11,040
specific relevance to blue book again

1896
00:59:15,109 --> 00:59:12,400
emanating from within the

1897
00:59:16,950 --> 00:59:15,119
us army and not within the u.s air force

1898
00:59:19,190 --> 00:59:16,960
but prior to the closure of project blue

1899
00:59:19,829 --> 00:59:19,200
book i suspect that there probably been

1900
00:59:22,069 --> 00:59:19,839
a lot of

1901
00:59:22,950 --> 00:59:22,079
very limited studies like that which you

1902
00:59:24,789 --> 00:59:22,960
know in terms of

1903
00:59:27,270 --> 00:59:24,799
maintaining operational security during

1904
00:59:29,750 --> 00:59:27,280
a conflict like vietnam or something

1905
00:59:31,990 --> 00:59:29,760
probably were seen as necessary at the

1906
00:59:34,630 --> 00:59:32,000
time or would have been beneficial

1907
00:59:36,069 --> 00:59:34,640
had they been successful but again they

1908
00:59:37,670 --> 00:59:36,079
merely observed things that they

1909
00:59:39,910 --> 00:59:37,680
couldn't identify and so there was

1910
00:59:41,270 --> 00:59:39,920
extremely limited success

1911
00:59:42,630 --> 00:59:41,280
and then there's a you know lessons

1912
00:59:44,390 --> 00:59:42,640
learned report written and then it gets

1913
00:59:45,030 --> 00:59:44,400
filed away until somebody finds you know

1914
00:59:47,750 --> 00:59:45,040
like paul

1915
00:59:49,030 --> 00:59:47,760
dean finds it via foia so again there

1916
00:59:50,230 --> 00:59:49,040
probably have been a lot of ongoing

1917
00:59:51,349 --> 00:59:50,240
studies over the years i don't know that

1918
00:59:53,190 --> 00:59:51,359
we could say that

1919
00:59:54,390 --> 00:59:53,200
again what the battelle institute was

1920
00:59:56,230 --> 00:59:54,400
studying

1921
00:59:57,829 --> 00:59:56,240
began and continued throughout the years

1922
00:59:59,990 --> 00:59:57,839
and has continued and that we're seeing

1923
01:00:03,109 --> 01:00:00,000
that continuation even right up with a

1924
01:00:04,309 --> 01:00:03,119
tip all sap and what have you i don't

1925
01:00:05,750 --> 01:00:04,319
think that's the case

1926
01:00:07,910 --> 01:00:05,760
we in fact know that the battelle

1927
01:00:10,230 --> 01:00:07,920
memorial institute concluded their

1928
01:00:11,829 --> 01:00:10,240
scientific review of blue book reports

1929
01:00:13,349 --> 01:00:11,839
the year after the robertson panel

1930
01:00:14,150 --> 01:00:13,359
convened and then that actually was

1931
01:00:16,710 --> 01:00:14,160
published

1932
01:00:18,789 --> 01:00:16,720
but let's not forget what project blue

1933
01:00:19,589 --> 01:00:18,799
book special report number 14 actually

1934
01:00:23,190 --> 01:00:19,599
said

1935
01:00:25,030 --> 01:00:23,200
ufo studies from over the years a lot of

1936
01:00:26,870 --> 01:00:25,040
these reports can be explained

1937
01:00:28,069 --> 01:00:26,880
but there are still a lot we can't put a

1938
01:00:30,150 --> 01:00:28,079
finger on we can't

1939
01:00:32,309 --> 01:00:30,160
conclude what this actually is there

1940
01:00:34,549 --> 01:00:32,319
seems to be something worthy of study

1941
01:00:36,150 --> 01:00:34,559
and we can't identify it and i'll note

1942
01:00:38,710 --> 01:00:36,160
this is significant

1943
01:00:40,069 --> 01:00:38,720
the university of colorado project under

1944
01:00:41,670 --> 01:00:40,079
edward yukondon

1945
01:00:43,349 --> 01:00:41,680
came to the same conclusion there were a

1946
01:00:46,309 --> 01:00:43,359
lot of reports and

1947
01:00:47,430 --> 01:00:46,319
and you know uh sightings and

1948
01:00:48,870 --> 01:00:47,440
investigations

1949
01:00:50,710 --> 01:00:48,880
from the blue book years that they

1950
01:00:52,870 --> 01:00:50,720
studied and that they reviewed

1951
01:00:54,390 --> 01:00:52,880
and on further inquiry they could not

1952
01:00:56,309 --> 01:00:54,400
come to any conclusions

1953
01:00:57,750 --> 01:00:56,319
you know the raf printwaters incident

1954
01:00:59,670 --> 01:00:57,760
not the one from again

1955
01:01:01,829 --> 01:00:59,680
suffolk in 1980 but we're talking about

1956
01:01:03,270 --> 01:01:01,839
the one from the 1950s which was a radar

1957
01:01:05,030 --> 01:01:03,280
visual case well-known

1958
01:01:06,470 --> 01:01:05,040
and it was also cited in the blue book

1959
01:01:08,069 --> 01:01:06,480
uh files

1960
01:01:10,870 --> 01:01:08,079
they couldn't come to any conclusions

1961
01:01:11,670 --> 01:01:10,880
about that one and although condon had

1962
01:01:14,150 --> 01:01:11,680
said

1963
01:01:16,309 --> 01:01:14,160
you know we can't see any benefit to

1964
01:01:18,309 --> 01:01:16,319
further scientific study right now

1965
01:01:20,069 --> 01:01:18,319
of the ufo issue we don't say that this

1966
01:01:21,910 --> 01:01:20,079
should never be studied or that the book

1967
01:01:23,990 --> 01:01:21,920
should be completely closed

1968
01:01:25,510 --> 01:01:24,000
maybe on down the road we should you

1969
01:01:27,270 --> 01:01:25,520
know reopen

1970
01:01:29,510 --> 01:01:27,280
studies into ufos that's what condon

1971
01:01:31,270 --> 01:01:29,520
really said

1972
01:01:33,349 --> 01:01:31,280
interesting because i mean all we hear

1973
01:01:35,349 --> 01:01:33,359
of condon is you know i don't think

1974
01:01:38,069 --> 01:01:35,359
there's anything to this ufo thing

1975
01:01:39,109 --> 01:01:38,079
but i'm not supposed to make that uh

1976
01:01:41,510 --> 01:01:39,119
that conclusion

1977
01:01:42,870 --> 01:01:41,520
for another year or so so you do have to

1978
01:01:45,430 --> 01:01:42,880
wonder maybe he uh

1979
01:01:47,190 --> 01:01:45,440
maybe he was an advocate more than he

1980
01:01:47,910 --> 01:01:47,200
would let on but i don't know i mean i

1981
01:01:50,230 --> 01:01:47,920
don't know

1982
01:01:51,670 --> 01:01:50,240
i do think he was dismissive of the ufos

1983
01:01:51,990 --> 01:01:51,680
and i think he was biased when he went

1984
01:01:53,990 --> 01:01:52,000
into

1985
01:01:55,750 --> 01:01:54,000
it i think his conclusion was his

1986
01:01:56,870 --> 01:01:55,760
conclusion but again i think he also was

1987
01:01:58,549 --> 01:01:56,880
fair enough to say look

1988
01:01:59,829 --> 01:01:58,559
this is what i think we don't see

1989
01:02:01,109 --> 01:01:59,839
anything worth studying but you know

1990
01:02:02,150 --> 01:02:01,119
we're not saying it should never be

1991
01:02:03,349 --> 01:02:02,160
studied we're just saying

1992
01:02:05,109 --> 01:02:03,359
you're going to be wasting your time

1993
01:02:06,150 --> 01:02:05,119
right now but again should the same hold

1994
01:02:07,750 --> 01:02:06,160
true today with

1995
01:02:09,349 --> 01:02:07,760
with technology like the raytheon's

1996
01:02:11,430 --> 01:02:09,359
atlear targeting pod

1997
01:02:13,349 --> 01:02:11,440
obviously we have better you know

1998
01:02:14,230 --> 01:02:13,359
instruments at our disposal today don't

1999
01:02:16,630 --> 01:02:14,240
we

2000
01:02:18,150 --> 01:02:16,640
absolutely man absolutely and i think

2001
01:02:18,549 --> 01:02:18,160
the other thing we have to keep in mind

2002
01:02:20,470 --> 01:02:18,559
is

2003
01:02:23,190 --> 01:02:20,480
when it comes to these studies or these

2004
01:02:23,990 --> 01:02:23,200
programs uh as we learned with atip and

2005
01:02:27,270 --> 01:02:24,000
asap

2006
01:02:29,829 --> 01:02:27,280
uh these things can be masked

2007
01:02:31,190 --> 01:02:29,839
in many different ways i mean they're

2008
01:02:32,549 --> 01:02:31,200
they're called things that we would

2009
01:02:36,470 --> 01:02:32,559
never expect the word

2010
01:02:38,230 --> 01:02:36,480
ufo or uh you know uap isn't used in the

2011
01:02:41,589 --> 01:02:38,240
programs or the studies it's

2012
01:02:42,470 --> 01:02:41,599
it's uh avs you know aerial vehicles or

2013
01:02:45,029 --> 01:02:42,480
it's uh

2014
01:02:46,470 --> 01:02:45,039
you know insert acronym here for what

2015
01:02:48,950 --> 01:02:46,480
could actually be

2016
01:02:50,069 --> 01:02:48,960
an unidentified aerial phenomena study

2017
01:02:52,309 --> 01:02:50,079
but we would never

2018
01:02:53,990 --> 01:02:52,319
even know where to begin looking for it

2019
01:02:55,349 --> 01:02:54,000
so i think you're right i think there's

2020
01:02:57,349 --> 01:02:55,359
so many tentacles

2021
01:02:58,630 --> 01:02:57,359
to the pentacle and everything in

2022
01:03:00,950 --> 01:02:58,640
between but uh

2023
01:03:01,670 --> 01:03:00,960
let's move on to uh to matthew here on

2024
01:03:04,309 --> 01:03:01,680
twitter

2025
01:03:06,549 --> 01:03:04,319
he asks micah has anyone ever considered

2026
01:03:08,950 --> 01:03:06,559
a ufo flap that wouldn't fit

2027
01:03:11,349 --> 01:03:08,960
what was proposed by the panko memo

2028
01:03:13,910 --> 01:03:11,359
there's been rumors about hopkinsville

2029
01:03:15,589 --> 01:03:13,920
for example um is it possible that the

2030
01:03:16,549 --> 01:03:15,599
benowitz affair might have been an

2031
01:03:18,710 --> 01:03:16,559
extension of

2032
01:03:20,789 --> 01:03:18,720
what the memo proposed kind of these

2033
01:03:24,069 --> 01:03:20,799
simulated or planned events

2034
01:03:25,990 --> 01:03:24,079
um benowitz i never would have even

2035
01:03:27,990 --> 01:03:26,000
ventured to go into that territory with

2036
01:03:30,230 --> 01:03:28,000
something planned but um

2037
01:03:31,349 --> 01:03:30,240
uh yeah what do you think could any of

2038
01:03:32,309 --> 01:03:31,359
these things we've heard about

2039
01:03:35,190 --> 01:03:32,319
hopkinsville

2040
01:03:35,750 --> 01:03:35,200
rendelsham this that have to do with

2041
01:03:38,470 --> 01:03:35,760
what the

2042
01:03:40,549 --> 01:03:38,480
the uh battelle institute proposed as

2043
01:03:42,230 --> 01:03:40,559
simulated events

2044
01:03:44,950 --> 01:03:42,240
right that's an interesting question

2045
01:03:47,990 --> 01:03:44,960
with hopkinsville if they decided to

2046
01:03:49,510 --> 01:03:48,000
institute a simulated event the

2047
01:03:50,870 --> 01:03:49,520
description of the events that occurred

2048
01:03:51,990 --> 01:03:50,880
there with the hopkinsville again we're

2049
01:03:53,990 --> 01:03:52,000
talking about presumably the

2050
01:03:55,349 --> 01:03:54,000
hopkinsville kelly incident it's

2051
01:03:57,670 --> 01:03:55,359
i would put that one more in the highest

2052
01:04:00,150 --> 01:03:57,680
range in this camp but

2053
01:04:01,910 --> 01:04:00,160
it nonetheless because of the fact that

2054
01:04:05,510 --> 01:04:01,920
it involved at least

2055
01:04:06,390 --> 01:04:05,520
uh tangent observations of uap around

2056
01:04:09,190 --> 01:04:06,400
the time of the

2057
01:04:11,750 --> 01:04:09,200
famous goblins you know that were seen

2058
01:04:13,109 --> 01:04:11,760
there purportedly around the farm

2059
01:04:14,390 --> 01:04:13,119
it was interesting enough that it did

2060
01:04:15,990 --> 01:04:14,400
warrant the attention of blue book and

2061
01:04:18,150 --> 01:04:16,000
there was an investigation and it was

2062
01:04:19,670 --> 01:04:18,160
included in the blue book files

2063
01:04:21,270 --> 01:04:19,680
um you got to keep in mind though also

2064
01:04:22,069 --> 01:04:21,280
that heineken especially was interested

2065
01:04:25,190 --> 01:04:22,079
in trying to

2066
01:04:27,910 --> 01:04:25,200
log different stages of

2067
01:04:29,109 --> 01:04:27,920
ufo encounters from you know the you

2068
01:04:30,630 --> 01:04:29,119
know the daylight discs

2069
01:04:32,309 --> 01:04:30,640
and the radar visuals all the way up

2070
01:04:34,710 --> 01:04:32,319
through the ce's uh one

2071
01:04:35,510 --> 01:04:34,720
two and three close encounter by the way

2072
01:04:37,270 --> 01:04:35,520
so

2073
01:04:38,710 --> 01:04:37,280
the hopkinsville kelly incident might

2074
01:04:40,789 --> 01:04:38,720
have been a qualifier for you know one

2075
01:04:42,870 --> 01:04:40,799
of those close encounter type cases

2076
01:04:44,470 --> 01:04:42,880
to me it's almost too strange to even

2077
01:04:46,710 --> 01:04:44,480
really call it a ufo

2078
01:04:47,750 --> 01:04:46,720
incident although it certainly warrants

2079
01:04:49,829 --> 01:04:47,760
some attention but if

2080
01:04:51,589 --> 01:04:49,839
if we were to try and ask could this be

2081
01:04:53,270 --> 01:04:51,599
the kind of thing that that was being

2082
01:04:54,789 --> 01:04:53,280
discussed by howard cross

2083
01:04:57,109 --> 01:04:54,799
he seems pretty explicitly to be

2084
01:04:57,670 --> 01:04:57,119
describing the institution of and again

2085
01:05:03,910 --> 01:04:57,680
he

2086
01:05:05,829 --> 01:05:03,920
could pull it up again

2087
01:05:08,630 --> 01:05:05,839
it's worth quoting him twice here he

2088
01:05:10,150 --> 01:05:08,640
says that uh there should be many types

2089
01:05:11,829 --> 01:05:10,160
of aerial activity

2090
01:05:13,910 --> 01:05:11,839
secretly and purposefully scheduled

2091
01:05:15,190 --> 01:05:13,920
within the area well the hopkinsville

2092
01:05:17,109 --> 01:05:15,200
goblins if that's what we're talking

2093
01:05:20,069 --> 01:05:17,119
about wouldn't probably constitute

2094
01:05:22,710 --> 01:05:20,079
aerial activity but it's not outside the

2095
01:05:24,069 --> 01:05:22,720
realm of the possible that you know one

2096
01:05:27,510 --> 01:05:24,079
might interpret

2097
01:05:29,029 --> 01:05:27,520
that as being a um a controlled affair

2098
01:05:31,190 --> 01:05:29,039
but that might have been some kind of an

2099
01:05:32,789 --> 01:05:31,200
experiment i think nick redfern has

2100
01:05:36,230 --> 01:05:32,799
probably proposed that over the years

2101
01:05:38,870 --> 01:05:36,240
i know he said the same of the famous

2102
01:05:40,309 --> 01:05:38,880
um flatwoods monster and and suggested

2103
01:05:41,510 --> 01:05:40,319
that that might actually have been some

2104
01:05:43,349 --> 01:05:41,520
kind of a

2105
01:05:44,630 --> 01:05:43,359
sort of a weaponized system in fact he

2106
01:05:46,470 --> 01:05:44,640
found a description of something very

2107
01:05:47,829 --> 01:05:46,480
similar in a rand corporation

2108
01:05:49,990 --> 01:05:47,839
file which he wrote about a number of

2109
01:05:51,670 --> 01:05:50,000
years ago so you know there's always

2110
01:05:53,829 --> 01:05:51,680
that interpretation but the problem with

2111
01:05:54,309 --> 01:05:53,839
that interpretation of some classic ufo

2112
01:05:56,150 --> 01:05:54,319
uh

2113
01:05:58,309 --> 01:05:56,160
sightings from over the years is to me

2114
01:06:00,789 --> 01:05:58,319
that again it is supposing that there is

2115
01:06:02,390 --> 01:06:00,799
a conspiratorial government-based

2116
01:06:04,390 --> 01:06:02,400
explanation for some of these high

2117
01:06:06,549 --> 01:06:04,400
strangeness encounters

2118
01:06:08,069 --> 01:06:06,559
which again is as speculative as saying

2119
01:06:09,430 --> 01:06:08,079
that it might have been exactly what

2120
01:06:10,789 --> 01:06:09,440
people claim that they saw and at the

2121
01:06:11,829 --> 01:06:10,799
end of the day we don't have any kind of

2122
01:06:14,470 --> 01:06:11,839
clear resolution

2123
01:06:16,150 --> 01:06:14,480
it's a different story again if we foia

2124
01:06:17,589 --> 01:06:16,160
you know about that and the government

2125
01:06:18,549 --> 01:06:17,599
releases documents and says you know

2126
01:06:20,069 --> 01:06:18,559
what

2127
01:06:21,990 --> 01:06:20,079
yeah we had a bunch of you know trained

2128
01:06:23,270 --> 01:06:22,000
hedgehogs and silver suits that we put

2129
01:06:24,630 --> 01:06:23,280
out there and everything and scared a

2130
01:06:26,950 --> 01:06:24,640
bunch of you know farmers

2131
01:06:28,549 --> 01:06:26,960
in hopkinsville you know if there's a

2132
01:06:29,589 --> 01:06:28,559
clear resolution that's one thing but

2133
01:06:30,630 --> 01:06:29,599
again everything else is just

2134
01:06:33,109 --> 01:06:30,640
speculation

2135
01:06:34,549 --> 01:06:33,119
but again i would not time cases like

2136
01:06:36,630 --> 01:06:34,559
that necessarily to what the patel

2137
01:06:38,309 --> 01:06:36,640
institute was doing nor would i say that

2138
01:06:39,670 --> 01:06:38,319
those are a continuation and that we're

2139
01:06:41,349 --> 01:06:39,680
seeing essentially the same thing right

2140
01:06:43,430 --> 01:06:41,359
on up to the modern era

2141
01:06:44,950 --> 01:06:43,440
with atip and some of the programs we

2142
01:06:46,549 --> 01:06:44,960
hear about today

2143
01:06:49,510 --> 01:06:46,559
yeah yeah i would have to agree with

2144
01:06:51,430 --> 01:06:49,520
that um this is a good question from deb

2145
01:06:53,029 --> 01:06:51,440
now we've talked a lot about you know

2146
01:06:54,789 --> 01:06:53,039
u.s funded

2147
01:06:56,630 --> 01:06:54,799
programs and everything especially

2148
01:06:59,349 --> 01:06:56,640
pentagon being one of them but

2149
01:07:00,549 --> 01:06:59,359
globally micah uh deb asks is there any

2150
01:07:03,510 --> 01:07:00,559
agency that

2151
01:07:05,670 --> 01:07:03,520
collates global data on ufo reports so

2152
01:07:08,470 --> 01:07:05,680
much info seems to come from the us

2153
01:07:08,789 --> 01:07:08,480
although this is a global phenomenon so

2154
01:07:12,230 --> 01:07:08,799
have

2155
01:07:15,029 --> 01:07:12,240
studies that you can think of

2156
01:07:16,390 --> 01:07:15,039
that have been done globally it to me

2157
01:07:19,510 --> 01:07:16,400
you know this is such a

2158
01:07:21,430 --> 01:07:19,520
um a

2159
01:07:22,950 --> 01:07:21,440
issue with national security when it

2160
01:07:23,589 --> 01:07:22,960
comes to the government studying these

2161
01:07:26,230 --> 01:07:23,599
things

2162
01:07:26,870 --> 01:07:26,240
so that's why i i tend to only find

2163
01:07:28,870 --> 01:07:26,880
things

2164
01:07:30,230 --> 01:07:28,880
country to country but yeah what do you

2165
01:07:33,029 --> 01:07:30,240
think has there ever

2166
01:07:34,870 --> 01:07:33,039
a global study of the ufo phenomenon

2167
01:07:35,990 --> 01:07:34,880
nothing's coming to my knowledge

2168
01:07:38,549 --> 01:07:36,000
i don't think that there's been a

2169
01:07:39,510 --> 01:07:38,559
comprehensive global effort on part of

2170
01:07:42,069 --> 01:07:39,520
governments

2171
01:07:43,589 --> 01:07:42,079
you know there has been of course there

2172
01:07:45,190 --> 01:07:43,599
have been instances where for instance

2173
01:07:46,870 --> 01:07:45,200
uh you know lee spiegel led the charge

2174
01:07:49,029 --> 01:07:46,880
to get valet and a few others to

2175
01:07:49,750 --> 01:07:49,039
actually brief the united nations that

2176
01:07:53,670 --> 01:07:49,760
would be

2177
01:07:54,390 --> 01:07:53,680
right it did not i guess we would say it

2178
01:07:57,270 --> 01:07:54,400
um

2179
01:07:57,750 --> 01:07:57,280
it didn't result in a u.n resolution or

2180
01:07:59,270 --> 01:07:57,760
anything

2181
01:08:01,670 --> 01:07:59,280
saying you know okay well now we're

2182
01:08:02,630 --> 01:08:01,680
going to institute a global uap task

2183
01:08:04,150 --> 01:08:02,640
force now

2184
01:08:06,230 --> 01:08:04,160
wouldn't it be interesting if the result

2185
01:08:07,670 --> 01:08:06,240
of the actual institution of the uap

2186
01:08:10,069 --> 01:08:07,680
task force under the u.s navy that

2187
01:08:11,589 --> 01:08:10,079
norquist is overseeing right now that

2188
01:08:14,950 --> 01:08:11,599
would be interesting if the result

2189
01:08:17,590 --> 01:08:14,960
of a report like that was a global

2190
01:08:20,149 --> 01:08:17,600
analysis you know a un sponsored

2191
01:08:23,430 --> 01:08:20,159
investigative organization that is

2192
01:08:25,990 --> 01:08:23,440
you know a unilateral observation of ufo

2193
01:08:26,789 --> 01:08:26,000
information and recording of of you know

2194
01:08:29,189 --> 01:08:26,799
data

2195
01:08:30,709 --> 01:08:29,199
uh forthcoming you know in the future on

2196
01:08:32,550 --> 01:08:30,719
on a global scale

2197
01:08:33,749 --> 01:08:32,560
as a result of the cooperation of

2198
01:08:35,430 --> 01:08:33,759
different world governments i mean that

2199
01:08:37,349 --> 01:08:35,440
would be fantastic but

2200
01:08:40,550 --> 01:08:37,359
i don't think we'll probably see that

2201
01:08:41,910 --> 01:08:40,560
and one of the reasons why is because

2202
01:08:43,829 --> 01:08:41,920
if there's one thing we can take away

2203
01:08:44,550 --> 01:08:43,839
from ufos and what current studies from

2204
01:08:46,789 --> 01:08:44,560
over the years

2205
01:08:48,390 --> 01:08:46,799
seem to show us it is that there's

2206
01:08:50,390 --> 01:08:48,400
something that is

2207
01:08:52,470 --> 01:08:50,400
with regard to uap that involves very

2208
01:08:55,349 --> 01:08:52,480
necessary secrecy

2209
01:08:56,309 --> 01:08:55,359
i mean the pentagon did disclose well

2210
01:08:58,950 --> 01:08:56,319
they re-released

2211
01:09:00,390 --> 01:08:58,960
three well-known videos earlier this

2212
01:09:02,070 --> 01:09:00,400
year and in april

2213
01:09:03,430 --> 01:09:02,080
yeah they officially disclosed the three

2214
01:09:06,630 --> 01:09:03,440
uh videos that again

2215
01:09:08,789 --> 01:09:06,640
appeared back in 2017 um which

2216
01:09:10,070 --> 01:09:08,799
i guess we have now learned that chris

2217
01:09:11,510 --> 01:09:10,080
mellon essentially had kind of

2218
01:09:12,309 --> 01:09:11,520
spearheaded that and in fact this is

2219
01:09:14,789 --> 01:09:12,319
discussed

2220
01:09:16,070 --> 01:09:14,799
i believe in james fox's documentary

2221
01:09:17,510 --> 01:09:16,080
that you know chris had really led the

2222
01:09:18,550 --> 01:09:17,520
charge with getting those videos

2223
01:09:20,550 --> 01:09:18,560
released to the publix

2224
01:09:22,390 --> 01:09:20,560
uh you know which my understanding was

2225
01:09:24,229 --> 01:09:22,400
that they had not been classified

2226
01:09:26,070 --> 01:09:24,239
at that point they just weren't public

2227
01:09:27,430 --> 01:09:26,080
and one of them had already been online

2228
01:09:29,669 --> 01:09:27,440
for a number of years

2229
01:09:32,149 --> 01:09:29,679
but without that prominence that

2230
01:09:33,510 --> 01:09:32,159
providence didn't exist and so therefore

2231
01:09:35,590 --> 01:09:33,520
you know there had still been some

2232
01:09:37,590 --> 01:09:35,600
questions when the videos were released

2233
01:09:39,910 --> 01:09:37,600
through unauthorized channels that again

2234
01:09:41,269 --> 01:09:39,920
the dod's official explanation as of

2235
01:09:42,870 --> 01:09:41,279
earlier this year in april and again

2236
01:09:43,829 --> 01:09:42,880
john greenwald and i went on coast to

2237
01:09:45,189 --> 01:09:43,839
coast am

2238
01:09:46,630 --> 01:09:45,199
stayed up all night and drank lots of

2239
01:09:48,390 --> 01:09:46,640
coffee talking about this and the

2240
01:09:51,269 --> 01:09:48,400
implications of that

2241
01:09:52,630 --> 01:09:51,279
um what we learned was that a according

2242
01:09:54,070 --> 01:09:52,640
to the government the videos that were

2243
01:09:56,550 --> 01:09:54,080
released were the full version of the

2244
01:09:58,470 --> 01:09:56,560
videos there weren't longer versions

2245
01:10:00,070 --> 01:09:58,480
and no they hadn't been doctored or

2246
01:10:02,950 --> 01:10:00,080
anything like that i mean the videos

2247
01:10:04,229 --> 01:10:02,960
as they were released in that format

2248
01:10:05,910 --> 01:10:04,239
were acknowledged by

2249
01:10:07,430 --> 01:10:05,920
the department of defense as having been

2250
01:10:09,669 --> 01:10:07,440
authentic videos

2251
01:10:10,950 --> 01:10:09,679
from the well they were obtained by the

2252
01:10:14,149 --> 01:10:10,960
navy but again released

2253
01:10:16,310 --> 01:10:14,159
via the dod and again their conclusion

2254
01:10:16,870 --> 01:10:16,320
after further review and again that

2255
01:10:19,110 --> 01:10:16,880
review

2256
01:10:21,669 --> 01:10:19,120
ryan was aimed at making sure that there

2257
01:10:24,070 --> 01:10:21,679
was no classified us technology

2258
01:10:25,990 --> 01:10:24,080
represented by the subjects of the film

2259
01:10:27,430 --> 01:10:26,000
nor was the technology used

2260
01:10:29,590 --> 01:10:27,440
to obtain the information about the

2261
01:10:31,510 --> 01:10:29,600
subjects indicative of any kind of

2262
01:10:32,709 --> 01:10:31,520
secret u.s technology that should not be

2263
01:10:34,709 --> 01:10:32,719
made public to the

2264
01:10:36,229 --> 01:10:34,719
general american or world public for

2265
01:10:38,630 --> 01:10:36,239
that matter again

2266
01:10:39,510 --> 01:10:38,640
after that review process they

2267
01:10:41,030 --> 01:10:39,520
determined that

2268
01:10:42,630 --> 01:10:41,040
nothing in the videos could not be

2269
01:10:44,149 --> 01:10:42,640
released and

2270
01:10:45,910 --> 01:10:44,159
that the subject of the videos the

2271
01:10:48,709 --> 01:10:45,920
purported phenomena remained they

2272
01:10:50,870 --> 01:10:48,719
classed it as unidentified

2273
01:10:51,990 --> 01:10:50,880
so i mean that to me and i i think that

2274
01:10:54,470 --> 01:10:52,000
you know john greenwald

2275
01:10:55,830 --> 01:10:54,480
tim mcmillan mj binayas you know a lot

2276
01:10:56,390 --> 01:10:55,840
of my colleagues in this field brett

2277
01:10:58,870 --> 01:10:56,400
tingley

2278
01:11:00,229 --> 01:10:58,880
yourself you know we would all interpret

2279
01:11:01,590 --> 01:11:00,239
that to mean well okay so the government

2280
01:11:02,470 --> 01:11:01,600
just released videos of something that

2281
01:11:05,270 --> 01:11:02,480
they say they

2282
01:11:05,910 --> 01:11:05,280
don't identify or can't identify we can

2283
01:11:07,430 --> 01:11:05,920
still i guess

2284
01:11:09,430 --> 01:11:07,440
play a little word salad here and

2285
01:11:11,270 --> 01:11:09,440
interpret what exactly that means but

2286
01:11:12,550 --> 01:11:11,280
again taken at face value it seems to

2287
01:11:15,510 --> 01:11:12,560
indicate

2288
01:11:16,390 --> 01:11:15,520
that they have established that chain of

2289
01:11:17,910 --> 01:11:16,400
custody

2290
01:11:20,070 --> 01:11:17,920
these videos came from us we don't know

2291
01:11:21,669 --> 01:11:20,080
what the objects are so yet again we've

2292
01:11:24,310 --> 01:11:21,679
got that verification through that chain

2293
01:11:27,350 --> 01:11:24,320
of custody being established

2294
01:11:30,550 --> 01:11:27,360
that says a lot it really does

2295
01:11:32,790 --> 01:11:30,560
it does man again i was very surprised

2296
01:11:34,149 --> 01:11:32,800
in their official release where it it

2297
01:11:37,270 --> 01:11:34,159
did state you know these

2298
01:11:39,910 --> 01:11:37,280
are genuine unidentified phenomena

2299
01:11:41,669 --> 01:11:39,920
and that that that's huge for our us

2300
01:11:42,390 --> 01:11:41,679
government to acknowledge that finally

2301
01:11:44,630 --> 01:11:42,400
after

2302
01:11:45,510 --> 01:11:44,640
how many years of denying that ufos even

2303
01:11:48,390 --> 01:11:45,520
were

2304
01:11:49,189 --> 01:11:48,400
an issue or a thing um it's a big step

2305
01:11:51,830 --> 01:11:49,199
it really is

2306
01:11:52,709 --> 01:11:51,840
and now let me can i click can i clarify

2307
01:11:56,709 --> 01:11:52,719
something

2308
01:11:59,669 --> 01:11:56,719
you guys said that uh the videos we saw

2309
01:12:00,630 --> 01:11:59,679
that this this is all they had

2310
01:12:02,630 --> 01:12:00,640
lengthwise

2311
01:12:05,189 --> 01:12:02,640
now i've heard from several individuals

2312
01:12:07,030 --> 01:12:05,199
that the videos might actually be longer

2313
01:12:09,110 --> 01:12:07,040
is this just conjecture or

2314
01:12:10,470 --> 01:12:09,120
has it officially been stated that the

2315
01:12:13,350 --> 01:12:10,480
videos the public see

2316
01:12:14,229 --> 01:12:13,360
these three navy ufo videos that is the

2317
01:12:17,669 --> 01:12:14,239
entire length

2318
01:12:19,030 --> 01:12:17,679
of the incident as recorded by these

2319
01:12:20,550 --> 01:12:19,040
navy cameras

2320
01:12:22,229 --> 01:12:20,560
that is what the dod's statement in

2321
01:12:25,189 --> 01:12:22,239
april said that is

2322
01:12:27,110 --> 01:12:25,199
what they say but like yourself i have

2323
01:12:28,870 --> 01:12:27,120
spoken to for instance i have spoken to

2324
01:12:31,510 --> 01:12:28,880
petty officer gary voorhees uh

2325
01:12:31,910 --> 01:12:31,520
also video ryan weiglt i've communicated

2326
01:12:34,470 --> 01:12:31,920
with

2327
01:12:35,750 --> 01:12:34,480
kevin day uh you know a lot of my

2328
01:12:36,229 --> 01:12:35,760
colleagues have spoken to others

2329
01:12:38,229 --> 01:12:36,239
including

2330
01:12:39,990 --> 01:12:38,239
commander david fravor and some of the

2331
01:12:41,430 --> 01:12:40,000
other individuals such as the weapons

2332
01:12:42,630 --> 01:12:41,440
officers you know who had

2333
01:12:45,510 --> 01:12:42,640
actually been flying with him at the

2334
01:12:47,910 --> 01:12:45,520
time of the 2004 nimitz incident

2335
01:12:49,189 --> 01:12:47,920
uh some of the folks i have spoken to

2336
01:12:50,790 --> 01:12:49,199
and i don't think gary would mind me

2337
01:12:52,550 --> 01:12:50,800
mentioning him by name because again he

2338
01:12:54,390 --> 01:12:52,560
went on the record and told me this over

2339
01:12:56,310 --> 01:12:54,400
the telephone for a podcast interview i

2340
01:12:58,390 --> 01:12:56,320
did with him and ryan weigled

2341
01:13:01,430 --> 01:12:58,400
that yes they had been watching what

2342
01:13:04,149 --> 01:13:01,440
again what he described to me

2343
01:13:05,030 --> 01:13:04,159
did not sound like the raytheon at flear

2344
01:13:06,630 --> 01:13:05,040
because again

2345
01:13:09,030 --> 01:13:06,640
as far as i understand the raytheon

2346
01:13:11,350 --> 01:13:09,040
atlear targeting forward targeting pod

2347
01:13:12,310 --> 01:13:11,360
which was used to obtain the footage and

2348
01:13:15,350 --> 01:13:12,320
keep in mind that

2349
01:13:16,550 --> 01:13:15,360
what was described by dave fraver that's

2350
01:13:18,790 --> 01:13:16,560
not what we see in the footage

2351
01:13:19,669 --> 01:13:18,800
the footage was obtained thereafter by

2352
01:13:22,709 --> 01:13:19,679
another pilot

2353
01:13:23,500 --> 01:13:22,719
again that was um oh gosh um you know

2354
01:13:25,270 --> 01:13:23,510
you know his name uh

2355
01:13:27,510 --> 01:13:25,280
[Music]

2356
01:13:29,030 --> 01:13:27,520
uh underwood yeah chad underwood thank

2357
01:13:30,470 --> 01:13:29,040
you very much

2358
01:13:32,149 --> 01:13:30,480
he came forward and did the interview

2359
01:13:34,070 --> 01:13:32,159
with new york magazine

2360
01:13:35,830 --> 01:13:34,080
he was the pilot oh and also i'm sorry

2361
01:13:37,270 --> 01:13:35,840
underwood also did a fantastic interview

2362
01:13:38,149 --> 01:13:37,280
with jeremy corbell which is available

2363
01:13:40,790 --> 01:13:38,159
on youtube

2364
01:13:42,229 --> 01:13:40,800
where he speaks at length about that uh

2365
01:13:43,910 --> 01:13:42,239
experience and so again for those who

2366
01:13:46,790 --> 01:13:43,920
have said we weren't sure what underwood

2367
01:13:48,950 --> 01:13:46,800
filmed it could be a 747 in the distance

2368
01:13:49,910 --> 01:13:48,960
i find that i find that to be a highly

2369
01:13:53,110 --> 01:13:49,920
dubious

2370
01:13:55,189 --> 01:13:53,120
argument that chad underwood operating

2371
01:13:57,110 --> 01:13:55,199
this sophisticated technology

2372
01:13:59,110 --> 01:13:57,120
uh was unable to determine that this

2373
01:14:00,630 --> 01:13:59,120
might just be a commercial aircraft in

2374
01:14:02,310 --> 01:14:00,640
the distance and further

2375
01:14:03,830 --> 01:14:02,320
for those who say that it could just be

2376
01:14:04,950 --> 01:14:03,840
a drug runner flying without a

2377
01:14:07,350 --> 01:14:04,960
transponder

2378
01:14:09,189 --> 01:14:07,360
if indeed what it was was a mere

2379
01:14:09,590 --> 01:14:09,199
commercial aircraft off in the distance

2380
01:14:11,110 --> 01:14:09,600
there

2381
01:14:13,110 --> 01:14:11,120
absolutely would had to have been if it

2382
01:14:14,310 --> 01:14:13,120
were a commercial aircraft a transponder

2383
01:14:15,750 --> 01:14:14,320
operative

2384
01:14:17,350 --> 01:14:15,760
not only did this aircraft that

2385
01:14:18,709 --> 01:14:17,360
underwood filmed

2386
01:14:20,390 --> 01:14:18,719
not only did it not operate with a

2387
01:14:22,550 --> 01:14:20,400
transponder not only

2388
01:14:23,830 --> 01:14:22,560
was he not like you know a great

2389
01:14:25,590 --> 01:14:23,840
distance away i don't think he was any

2390
01:14:26,950 --> 01:14:25,600
more than about 19 miles at most away

2391
01:14:28,950 --> 01:14:26,960
from this object

2392
01:14:30,870 --> 01:14:28,960
but the minute he begins to attempt to

2393
01:14:33,270 --> 01:14:30,880
try and lock in on it with

2394
01:14:34,310 --> 01:14:33,280
the targeting pod it attempts to jam his

2395
01:14:35,510 --> 01:14:34,320
radar

2396
01:14:37,590 --> 01:14:35,520
and he's having a hard time actually

2397
01:14:39,030 --> 01:14:37,600
getting a lock on it and then of course

2398
01:14:40,709 --> 01:14:39,040
as has famously been pointed out at the

2399
01:14:43,430 --> 01:14:40,719
end when the thing just kind of zips out

2400
01:14:44,390 --> 01:14:43,440
of the frame it's not moving slowly i

2401
01:14:45,910 --> 01:14:44,400
mean you got to keep in mind he's

2402
01:14:47,750 --> 01:14:45,920
tracking an object that's moving

2403
01:14:49,669 --> 01:14:47,760
at tremendous speed at that point and

2404
01:14:51,510 --> 01:14:49,679
this thing is going like probably mach 8

2405
01:14:53,350 --> 01:14:51,520
9 10 who knows what when it's

2406
01:14:54,790 --> 01:14:53,360
zipping out of the frame and as

2407
01:14:56,630 --> 01:14:54,800
underwood stated i didn't

2408
01:14:57,830 --> 01:14:56,640
attempt to try and continue to film it

2409
01:14:59,750 --> 01:14:57,840
i'd already gotten

2410
01:15:01,110 --> 01:14:59,760
the footage of the object i did what i

2411
01:15:02,550 --> 01:15:01,120
was told to do

2412
01:15:03,830 --> 01:15:02,560
he said i didn't think much about it

2413
01:15:06,550 --> 01:15:03,840
thereafter he says i'll let the

2414
01:15:08,470 --> 01:15:06,560
scientists and the geeks you know

2415
01:15:09,669 --> 01:15:08,480
determine what that thing is i was just

2416
01:15:10,470 --> 01:15:09,679
told to go out there and film it and i

2417
01:15:13,110 --> 01:15:10,480
did

2418
01:15:14,709 --> 01:15:13,120
so that said again we have a lot of

2419
01:15:16,790 --> 01:15:14,719
different data to unpack here we have

2420
01:15:18,390 --> 01:15:16,800
the testimony of commander fravor

2421
01:15:20,630 --> 01:15:18,400
we have the footage that underwood

2422
01:15:22,550 --> 01:15:20,640
obtained we have the

2423
01:15:24,950 --> 01:15:22,560
testimony of the radar operators aboard

2424
01:15:25,910 --> 01:15:24,960
the princeton gary voorhees and kevin

2425
01:15:29,669 --> 01:15:25,920
day

2426
01:15:31,669 --> 01:15:29,679
sorry gary voorhees

2427
01:15:33,270 --> 01:15:31,679
gary voorhees said to me that yes there

2428
01:15:35,430 --> 01:15:33,280
was footage of what appeared to be a

2429
01:15:36,950 --> 01:15:35,440
live relay during the intercept attempt

2430
01:15:38,709 --> 01:15:36,960
by fraver and others

2431
01:15:40,070 --> 01:15:38,719
where they attempt and again he said

2432
01:15:41,990 --> 01:15:40,080
that this would have been

2433
01:15:43,270 --> 01:15:42,000
i guess i don't want to misspeak here i

2434
01:15:44,149 --> 01:15:43,280
guess that this would be equivalent to

2435
01:15:45,669 --> 01:15:44,159
the gun cam

2436
01:15:48,149 --> 01:15:45,679
this was not of course the raytheon

2437
01:15:49,910 --> 01:15:48,159
atlear targeting pod that to me

2438
01:15:51,990 --> 01:15:49,920
it's my understanding there isn't a live

2439
01:15:54,870 --> 01:15:52,000
relay feeding that footage back

2440
01:15:57,430 --> 01:15:54,880
to the ship but there is a live relay a

2441
01:16:00,310 --> 01:15:57,440
video system used on board those jets

2442
01:16:01,669 --> 01:16:00,320
uh which i think it would be uh i

2443
01:16:03,110 --> 01:16:01,679
believe it would be correct to call that

2444
01:16:04,790 --> 01:16:03,120
the gun camera but that should not be

2445
01:16:06,229 --> 01:16:04,800
mistaken for what we see in the footage

2446
01:16:08,070 --> 01:16:06,239
that underwood obtained that's not gun

2447
01:16:09,830 --> 01:16:08,080
camera i've heard some up very good ufo

2448
01:16:10,550 --> 01:16:09,840
researchers call that gun camera footage

2449
01:16:13,350 --> 01:16:10,560
it's not

2450
01:16:14,390 --> 01:16:13,360
that is not what that is but voorhees

2451
01:16:17,750 --> 01:16:14,400
indicated to me that

2452
01:16:20,229 --> 01:16:17,760
and what's that system called the uh the

2453
01:16:21,510 --> 01:16:20,239
the something link and i looked it up in

2454
01:16:23,030 --> 01:16:21,520
fact you can read about it online he

2455
01:16:24,790 --> 01:16:23,040
told me i have to double check

2456
01:16:26,870 --> 01:16:24,800
uh it's unclassified but i mean there is

2457
01:16:30,390 --> 01:16:26,880
a system that they use for

2458
01:16:32,229 --> 01:16:30,400
live visualization like that so gary's

2459
01:16:34,709 --> 01:16:32,239
recollection was that there was a live

2460
01:16:36,149 --> 01:16:34,719
relay and that he and others were able

2461
01:16:38,390 --> 01:16:36,159
to watch that at the time of the

2462
01:16:41,830 --> 01:16:38,400
intercept attempt by fravor at all

2463
01:16:43,669 --> 01:16:41,840
okay and that that was when he saw the

2464
01:16:46,709 --> 01:16:43,679
the dynamics and the performance of this

2465
01:16:48,870 --> 01:16:46,719
object that's what gary remembered

2466
01:16:50,390 --> 01:16:48,880
petty officer weiglt also said that he

2467
01:16:51,830 --> 01:16:50,400
recalled there being something on the

2468
01:16:53,110 --> 01:16:51,840
screen but he said he was dealing with a

2469
01:16:54,149 --> 01:16:53,120
mechanical issue at the time and he

2470
01:16:55,350 --> 01:16:54,159
wasn't paying attention to what

2471
01:16:56,550 --> 01:16:55,360
everybody was watching

2472
01:16:58,470 --> 01:16:56,560
but he said he remembered something

2473
01:16:59,830 --> 01:16:58,480
being on the screen

2474
01:17:01,910 --> 01:16:59,840
but that would not have been the same

2475
01:17:03,270 --> 01:17:01,920
thing as the footage that chad underwood

2476
01:17:05,990 --> 01:17:03,280
obtained and therefore

2477
01:17:07,189 --> 01:17:06,000
when the dod said this is the complete

2478
01:17:09,110 --> 01:17:07,199
footage

2479
01:17:10,790 --> 01:17:09,120
i'm sure that that does well at least i

2480
01:17:12,390 --> 01:17:10,800
think it's a reasonable

2481
01:17:14,310 --> 01:17:12,400
a reasonable proposition that they

2482
01:17:15,669 --> 01:17:14,320
aren't saying they aren't lying when

2483
01:17:15,990 --> 01:17:15,679
they say that there wasn't more footage

2484
01:17:18,149 --> 01:17:16,000
in their

2485
01:17:19,510 --> 01:17:18,159
possession but what i think petty

2486
01:17:20,870 --> 01:17:19,520
officers aboard the princeton

2487
01:17:22,870 --> 01:17:20,880
and others who said that they saw

2488
01:17:24,630 --> 01:17:22,880
footage were describing was not the same

2489
01:17:26,229 --> 01:17:24,640
thing as the footage obtained by chad

2490
01:17:28,790 --> 01:17:26,239
underwood

2491
01:17:29,430 --> 01:17:28,800
interesting hey that demystifies a lot

2492
01:17:31,189 --> 01:17:29,440
because

2493
01:17:32,950 --> 01:17:31,199
i know there's been a lot of talk of

2494
01:17:33,430 --> 01:17:32,960
we're only seeing a portion of the video

2495
01:17:37,350 --> 01:17:33,440
well

2496
01:17:39,990 --> 01:17:37,360
that's the only video that the dod

2497
01:17:42,229 --> 01:17:40,000
has in their possessions so um i guess

2498
01:17:44,470 --> 01:17:42,239
they're not lying they're they're good

2499
01:17:46,149 --> 01:17:44,480
they're good like i said of tiptoeing

2500
01:17:46,709 --> 01:17:46,159
and with wording and everything in

2501
01:17:49,910 --> 01:17:46,719
between

2502
01:17:52,229 --> 01:17:49,920
they are and women for that yeah but

2503
01:17:53,510 --> 01:17:52,239
because of that ryan i strongly suspect

2504
01:17:56,310 --> 01:17:53,520
there are other

2505
01:17:58,390 --> 01:17:56,320
both video and photo uh you know

2506
01:18:00,709 --> 01:17:58,400
representations of these

2507
01:18:02,390 --> 01:18:00,719
uap i don't doubt that there are

2508
01:18:02,630 --> 01:18:02,400
probably others that's not some sort of

2509
01:18:07,830 --> 01:18:02,640
an

2510
01:18:09,510 --> 01:18:07,840
that because of their efficacy at

2511
01:18:11,590 --> 01:18:09,520
playing word salad

2512
01:18:13,350 --> 01:18:11,600
you know i don't doubt that there are

2513
01:18:15,189 --> 01:18:13,360
other things in their possession

2514
01:18:17,189 --> 01:18:15,199
which the public does not know about and

2515
01:18:18,149 --> 01:18:17,199
which may not even be classified and if

2516
01:18:20,550 --> 01:18:18,159
we wanted to try and

2517
01:18:21,350 --> 01:18:20,560
gain access to those things or file foia

2518
01:18:22,790 --> 01:18:21,360
requests

2519
01:18:24,470 --> 01:18:22,800
you're not going to get access to

2520
01:18:27,830 --> 01:18:24,480
something that you don't even know

2521
01:18:30,390 --> 01:18:27,840
how to begin to know what to ask for

2522
01:18:32,310 --> 01:18:30,400
and it could be years if we ever see

2523
01:18:34,470 --> 01:18:32,320
these things right

2524
01:18:36,790 --> 01:18:34,480
it could be years it could be days it

2525
01:18:37,669 --> 01:18:36,800
could be weeks uh no one can really say

2526
01:18:40,790 --> 01:18:37,679
but um

2527
01:18:41,750 --> 01:18:40,800
that's the ufo anticipation world we

2528
01:18:44,229 --> 01:18:41,760
live in micah

2529
01:18:45,110 --> 01:18:44,239
um well let's end these listener

2530
01:18:47,990 --> 01:18:45,120
questions

2531
01:18:50,229 --> 01:18:48,000
with a bigfoot question i'm talking to a

2532
01:18:53,350 --> 01:18:50,239
host of a bigfoot podcast

2533
01:18:57,030 --> 01:18:53,360
so um the bigfoot society podcast

2534
01:18:59,830 --> 01:18:57,040
collectively asks micah uh do you

2535
01:19:00,229 --> 01:18:59,840
ever find your love for ufos and your

2536
01:19:03,510 --> 01:19:00,239
love

2537
01:19:06,070 --> 01:19:03,520
for bigfoot intersecting and if yes how

2538
01:19:09,350 --> 01:19:08,149
well the closest i would say that they

2539
01:19:13,030 --> 01:19:09,360
come to intersecting

2540
01:19:15,270 --> 01:19:13,040
is that i try to apply a historical

2541
01:19:17,830 --> 01:19:15,280
scientifically informed historical

2542
01:19:19,750 --> 01:19:17,840
approach to both topics

2543
01:19:20,870 --> 01:19:19,760
but i understand the question that

2544
01:19:25,030 --> 01:19:20,880
they're asking there

2545
01:19:28,149 --> 01:19:25,040
uh i do not find continuity between

2546
01:19:29,350 --> 01:19:28,159
those avenues of research for instance

2547
01:19:33,270 --> 01:19:29,360
sasquatch to me

2548
01:19:34,790 --> 01:19:33,280
i treat as a flesh and blood animal

2549
01:19:37,270 --> 01:19:34,800
and one that is more like humans than

2550
01:19:39,270 --> 01:19:37,280
any other known species

2551
01:19:40,470 --> 01:19:39,280
if it exists and i have some

2552
01:19:44,070 --> 01:19:40,480
reservations

2553
01:19:46,070 --> 01:19:44,080
but nonetheless to quote the

2554
01:19:47,830 --> 01:19:46,080
archaeologist myra shackley even if we

2555
01:19:50,550 --> 01:19:47,840
acknowledge and i do

2556
01:19:51,430 --> 01:19:50,560
the folkloric aspects and the continuity

2557
01:19:53,669 --> 01:19:51,440
between

2558
01:19:55,030 --> 01:19:53,679
cultural traditions about purported wild

2559
01:19:55,910 --> 01:19:55,040
people and things like that throughout

2560
01:19:58,149 --> 01:19:55,920
time

2561
01:19:59,430 --> 01:19:58,159
there's obviously a heavily steeped

2562
01:20:02,310 --> 01:19:59,440
element that deals

2563
01:20:03,910 --> 01:20:02,320
exclusively in folklore but myths and

2564
01:20:04,390 --> 01:20:03,920
folklore do not leave footprints in the

2565
01:20:06,310 --> 01:20:04,400
ground

2566
01:20:07,830 --> 01:20:06,320
that was shaklee's contention and how

2567
01:20:08,870 --> 01:20:07,840
she ended her wonderful book from the

2568
01:20:10,870 --> 01:20:08,880
1980s

2569
01:20:12,709 --> 01:20:10,880
still living sasquatch yeti and the

2570
01:20:15,110 --> 01:20:12,719
neanderthal enigma

2571
01:20:16,149 --> 01:20:15,120
and uh or i should say neanderthal but

2572
01:20:19,430 --> 01:20:16,159
you know again

2573
01:20:21,430 --> 01:20:19,440
i share shaklee's contention that there

2574
01:20:22,790 --> 01:20:21,440
is enough data that supports however

2575
01:20:23,910 --> 01:20:22,800
little there is there's enough i think

2576
01:20:25,270 --> 01:20:23,920
that supports

2577
01:20:27,510 --> 01:20:25,280
the treatment of that subject as a

2578
01:20:28,790 --> 01:20:27,520
physical reality and there are many

2579
01:20:30,310 --> 01:20:28,800
people who are like you know but yeah

2580
01:20:32,550 --> 01:20:30,320
lights show up in the same places where

2581
01:20:35,430 --> 01:20:32,560
sasquatches are seen

2582
01:20:37,189 --> 01:20:35,440
okay great you know you might also say

2583
01:20:39,110 --> 01:20:37,199
that ice cream cones are sold

2584
01:20:40,709 --> 01:20:39,120
in many of the same cities above which

2585
01:20:42,709 --> 01:20:40,719
ufo sightings occur

2586
01:20:44,070 --> 01:20:42,719
but i wouldn't correlate ice cream cones

2587
01:20:45,270 --> 01:20:44,080
with ufo sightings

2588
01:20:47,510 --> 01:20:45,280
and again we have to remember this is a

2589
01:20:49,590 --> 01:20:47,520
fundamental scientific tenet that

2590
01:20:50,790 --> 01:20:49,600
correlation does not necessarily mean

2591
01:20:52,629 --> 01:20:50,800
causation

2592
01:20:54,390 --> 01:20:52,639
and just because two phenomena might

2593
01:20:56,149 --> 01:20:54,400
occur in a similar area that doesn't

2594
01:20:58,310 --> 01:20:56,159
necessarily mean there's a correlation

2595
01:20:59,430 --> 01:20:58,320
so i draw no connections between the

2596
01:21:01,910 --> 01:20:59,440
sasquatch subject

2597
01:21:02,629 --> 01:21:01,920
which again i always try to treat and

2598
01:21:05,189 --> 01:21:02,639
proceed with

2599
01:21:06,550 --> 01:21:05,199
studying as a scientifically informed

2600
01:21:08,550 --> 01:21:06,560
historical researcher

2601
01:21:09,669 --> 01:21:08,560
do the same thing with ufos but i treat

2602
01:21:11,350 --> 01:21:09,679
that in a

2603
01:21:13,110 --> 01:21:11,360
entirely separate way same goes with my

2604
01:21:15,750 --> 01:21:13,120
archaeology stuff i do

2605
01:21:16,310 --> 01:21:15,760
has no relationship to ufos or sasquatch

2606
01:21:18,310 --> 01:21:16,320
you know

2607
01:21:19,910 --> 01:21:18,320
a lot of researchers i think they they

2608
01:21:23,030 --> 01:21:19,920
want there to be some grand

2609
01:21:24,629 --> 01:21:23,040
unifying theory of the paranormal

2610
01:21:26,390 --> 01:21:24,639
i don't know that there is one any more

2611
01:21:27,189 --> 01:21:26,400
than there's a grand unifying theory in

2612
01:21:29,189 --> 01:21:27,199
physics

2613
01:21:31,030 --> 01:21:29,199
and the late stephen hawking said you

2614
01:21:33,430 --> 01:21:31,040
know we may have to settle

2615
01:21:34,790 --> 01:21:33,440
for there simply being many partial

2616
01:21:36,310 --> 01:21:34,800
theories that explain

2617
01:21:38,070 --> 01:21:36,320
the variety of things that we observe in

2618
01:21:39,110 --> 01:21:38,080
the universe he said we may have to

2619
01:21:40,550 --> 01:21:39,120
settle for that and if we do you know

2620
01:21:41,910 --> 01:21:40,560
what i'm okay with it you know

2621
01:21:44,790 --> 01:21:41,920
it just gives us more stuff to have to

2622
01:21:46,790 --> 01:21:44,800
study absolutely the theory

2623
01:21:48,149 --> 01:21:46,800
of everything i couldn't agree more with

2624
01:21:50,390 --> 01:21:48,159
you man and hey

2625
01:21:52,629 --> 01:21:50,400
i think the historical approach that

2626
01:21:55,510 --> 01:21:52,639
you've taken to many of these topics

2627
01:21:57,189 --> 01:21:55,520
is uh a lot more important than i think

2628
01:21:58,550 --> 01:21:57,199
people give it credit for i mean last

2629
01:22:00,629 --> 01:21:58,560
time i had you on

2630
01:22:02,470 --> 01:22:00,639
we were talking about ufo cases from

2631
01:22:05,510 --> 01:22:02,480
like god the 15th

2632
01:22:08,229 --> 01:22:05,520
16th century and i mean the

2633
01:22:09,430 --> 01:22:08,239
historical context in which you put some

2634
01:22:11,910 --> 01:22:09,440
of these events

2635
01:22:12,709 --> 01:22:11,920
you were almost able to explain some of

2636
01:22:15,990 --> 01:22:12,719
these events

2637
01:22:17,750 --> 01:22:16,000
due to simply knowing the history behind

2638
01:22:18,629 --> 01:22:17,760
what was going on in the area and the

2639
01:22:20,950 --> 01:22:18,639
culture

2640
01:22:21,750 --> 01:22:20,960
at the time so the fact that you the

2641
01:22:24,550 --> 01:22:21,760
time lord

2642
01:22:26,149 --> 01:22:24,560
are solving possibly solving ufo cases

2643
01:22:27,430 --> 01:22:26,159
from the 16th century

2644
01:22:28,870 --> 01:22:27,440
tells me something that you're on the

2645
01:22:29,910 --> 01:22:28,880
right track so i couldn't agree more

2646
01:22:33,030 --> 01:22:29,920
with you of uh

2647
01:22:35,750 --> 01:22:33,040
looking at these topics not as a sort of

2648
01:22:37,270 --> 01:22:35,760
phenomenal string theory but uh from a

2649
01:22:39,350 --> 01:22:37,280
historical standpoint so

2650
01:22:41,110 --> 01:22:39,360
i have to respect you for doing that the

2651
01:22:42,550 --> 01:22:41,120
same applies to the pinnacle memorandum

2652
01:22:43,750 --> 01:22:42,560
again if you want the answers you have

2653
01:22:46,149 --> 01:22:43,760
to understand

2654
01:22:47,669 --> 01:22:46,159
what's happening at that time you know

2655
01:22:48,950 --> 01:22:47,679
what what was going on in government

2656
01:22:51,030 --> 01:22:48,960
what was going on you know what was

2657
01:22:52,229 --> 01:22:51,040
heineken doing and what was valet doing

2658
01:22:53,430 --> 01:22:52,239
you know what were their perspectives

2659
01:22:54,310 --> 01:22:53,440
what were they being told what were they

2660
01:22:57,030 --> 01:22:54,320
not being told

2661
01:22:58,629 --> 01:22:57,040
again i really think it's important you

2662
01:22:59,910 --> 01:22:58,639
know tim mcmillan and i were talking

2663
01:23:01,430 --> 01:22:59,920
about this the other day with our good

2664
01:23:03,270 --> 01:23:01,440
friend mj bonayas

2665
01:23:04,470 --> 01:23:03,280
you know that with ufos even though

2666
01:23:05,910 --> 01:23:04,480
there's no overt

2667
01:23:07,270 --> 01:23:05,920
threats to this you know there doesn't

2668
01:23:08,470 --> 01:23:07,280
appear to be anything threatening about

2669
01:23:11,350 --> 01:23:08,480
this phenomenon

2670
01:23:13,110 --> 01:23:11,360
but any what appears to be significantly

2671
01:23:15,669 --> 01:23:13,120
technologically advanced

2672
01:23:16,709 --> 01:23:15,679
phenomena in our midst that we can't

2673
01:23:19,350 --> 01:23:16,719
account for

2674
01:23:19,990 --> 01:23:19,360
it must be treated as a potential

2675
01:23:21,430 --> 01:23:20,000
national

2676
01:23:23,430 --> 01:23:21,440
security concern if you don't want to

2677
01:23:25,590 --> 01:23:23,440
say threat although again

2678
01:23:27,350 --> 01:23:25,600
atip right advanced aerospace threat

2679
01:23:28,470 --> 01:23:27,360
identification program that's exactly

2680
01:23:30,870 --> 01:23:28,480
what they're doing

2681
01:23:33,030 --> 01:23:30,880
we we assess the potential threat

2682
01:23:34,629 --> 01:23:33,040
because if it seems to be able to outfox

2683
01:23:36,149 --> 01:23:34,639
us and we don't know whose it is we have

2684
01:23:39,110 --> 01:23:36,159
to always proceed with

2685
01:23:39,990 --> 01:23:39,120
caution and that potential on the table

2686
01:23:41,510 --> 01:23:40,000
but

2687
01:23:43,750 --> 01:23:41,520
if we want to actually get to the bottom

2688
01:23:45,750 --> 01:23:43,760
of what this phenomena is

2689
01:23:47,590 --> 01:23:45,760
again we must be historically and

2690
01:23:48,390 --> 01:23:47,600
scientifically inclined those two things

2691
01:23:50,070 --> 01:23:48,400
i think

2692
01:23:51,830 --> 01:23:50,080
are going to take us that's going to

2693
01:23:54,070 --> 01:23:51,840
help us make leaps and bounds toward

2694
01:23:56,070 --> 01:23:54,080
resolving this issue and who knows

2695
01:23:58,629 --> 01:23:56,080
once we or if we are able to at some

2696
01:24:00,229 --> 01:23:58,639
point it might make us as humankind

2697
01:24:02,629 --> 01:24:00,239
all the better for it we could hope so

2698
01:24:05,350 --> 01:24:02,639
at least we can always hope

2699
01:24:07,590 --> 01:24:05,360
i keep that hope man we need it now more

2700
01:24:09,030 --> 01:24:07,600
than ever well i have to ask before we

2701
01:24:10,629 --> 01:24:09,040
wrap things up here

2702
01:24:12,310 --> 01:24:10,639
you are one of the most hardworking

2703
01:24:12,870 --> 01:24:12,320
busiest people out there when it comes

2704
01:24:15,590 --> 01:24:12,880
to

2705
01:24:17,590 --> 01:24:15,600
podcasting and writing and and

2706
01:24:18,790 --> 01:24:17,600
everything research you do whether it's

2707
01:24:21,910 --> 01:24:18,800
ufos

2708
01:24:24,390 --> 01:24:21,920
paranormal archaeological so tell us

2709
01:24:24,950 --> 01:24:24,400
what do you got going on right now i'm

2710
01:24:28,229 --> 01:24:24,960
sure

2711
01:24:30,149 --> 01:24:28,239
this is gonna be the most uh

2712
01:24:31,510 --> 01:24:30,159
the biggest question of the night since

2713
01:24:33,270 --> 01:24:31,520
you're always up to so much

2714
01:24:34,950 --> 01:24:33,280
but yeah tell us everything you got

2715
01:24:36,870 --> 01:24:34,960
going on um

2716
01:24:38,950 --> 01:24:36,880
and what might be coming up with you if

2717
01:24:40,790 --> 01:24:38,960
there's anything you're willing to share

2718
01:24:42,470 --> 01:24:40,800
well i've been uh i can't say too much

2719
01:24:44,790 --> 01:24:42,480
about my big project right now but

2720
01:24:46,149 --> 01:24:44,800
let's just say i have had an idea in the

2721
01:24:48,390 --> 01:24:46,159
works since last

2722
01:24:50,470 --> 01:24:48,400
fall that with the help and the

2723
01:24:52,790 --> 01:24:50,480
diligence of a couple of

2724
01:24:53,750 --> 01:24:52,800
dear friends who i've named a couple of

2725
01:24:55,750 --> 01:24:53,760
times over the course of this

2726
01:24:57,430 --> 01:24:55,760
conversation but who i won't

2727
01:24:58,870 --> 01:24:57,440
name specifically here i've got to leave

2728
01:25:00,149 --> 01:24:58,880
people wondering a little bit thanks to

2729
01:25:02,310 --> 01:25:00,159
them and their help

2730
01:25:03,189 --> 01:25:02,320
and our combined effort we hope to

2731
01:25:06,709 --> 01:25:03,199
really make some

2732
01:25:09,189 --> 01:25:06,719
big waves in 2021

2733
01:25:10,709 --> 01:25:09,199
before then even and um so there's going

2734
01:25:13,110 --> 01:25:10,719
to be some big stuff coming

2735
01:25:14,870 --> 01:25:13,120
but uh now i know we hear that a lot

2736
01:25:16,229 --> 01:25:14,880
from certain people in the ufo community

2737
01:25:17,830 --> 01:25:16,239
and so i try to

2738
01:25:20,070 --> 01:25:17,840
you know shy away from that i actually

2739
01:25:21,990 --> 01:25:20,080
look forward to a day where

2740
01:25:23,430 --> 01:25:22,000
kind of borrowing this idea from the

2741
01:25:24,870 --> 01:25:23,440
great uh alan hendry

2742
01:25:26,629 --> 01:25:24,880
who worked under hynic there at the

2743
01:25:27,990 --> 01:25:26,639
center of ufo studies back in the 70s

2744
01:25:29,830 --> 01:25:28,000
and who wrote a book literally called

2745
01:25:31,390 --> 01:25:29,840
the ufo handbook

2746
01:25:33,270 --> 01:25:31,400
you know he had advocated a

2747
01:25:35,590 --> 01:25:33,280
non-revolutionary theory

2748
01:25:37,430 --> 01:25:35,600
for ufos i look forward to a day where

2749
01:25:38,870 --> 01:25:37,440
every report every study every article

2750
01:25:41,270 --> 01:25:38,880
that's forthcoming isn't the latest

2751
01:25:42,950 --> 01:25:41,280
bombshell the latest revelation

2752
01:25:44,709 --> 01:25:42,960
i think once we can kind of treat this

2753
01:25:46,149 --> 01:25:44,719
as ah you know here's another ufo study

2754
01:25:47,750 --> 01:25:46,159
and we've got some more data now let's

2755
01:25:48,709 --> 01:25:47,760
add that to the mix and let's you know

2756
01:25:49,830 --> 01:25:48,719
move forward

2757
01:25:52,149 --> 01:25:49,840
then we're going to really get to a

2758
01:25:53,030 --> 01:25:52,159
point where true progress can be made

2759
01:25:54,629 --> 01:25:53,040
and so

2760
01:25:56,390 --> 01:25:54,639
you know i want to keep my own

2761
01:25:58,550 --> 01:25:56,400
expectations about

2762
01:25:59,750 --> 01:25:58,560
big news and things you know i want to

2763
01:26:01,350 --> 01:25:59,760
keep that in check but

2764
01:26:02,709 --> 01:26:01,360
i will say people have some things to

2765
01:26:04,229 --> 01:26:02,719
look forward to and you'll be hearing

2766
01:26:06,550 --> 01:26:04,239
more about that from yours truly

2767
01:26:08,070 --> 01:26:06,560
in the meantime of course i am a

2768
01:26:10,310 --> 01:26:08,080
podcaster i'm a writer

2769
01:26:11,830 --> 01:26:10,320
and i love to uh engage with the

2770
01:26:12,390 --> 01:26:11,840
community and talk about these things

2771
01:26:14,070 --> 01:26:12,400
and then

2772
01:26:15,669 --> 01:26:14,080
probably spend far too much time

2773
01:26:17,350 --> 01:26:15,679
studying and researching so there will

2774
01:26:18,310 --> 01:26:17,360
be a couple of books forthcoming on

2775
01:26:21,030 --> 01:26:18,320
those two subjects

2776
01:26:22,070 --> 01:26:21,040
sasquatch and also the history of ufos

2777
01:26:24,470 --> 01:26:22,080
when i can finish them

2778
01:26:25,750 --> 01:26:24,480
there they are serious undertakings and

2779
01:26:27,110 --> 01:26:25,760
in the meantime if you want to get my

2780
01:26:28,310 --> 01:26:27,120
thoughts on all these things micah

2781
01:26:29,990 --> 01:26:28,320
hanks.com

2782
01:26:31,750 --> 01:26:30,000
forward slash podcast is where you can

2783
01:26:32,910 --> 01:26:31,760
find all the podcasts

2784
01:26:34,950 --> 01:26:32,920
and of course the main website

2785
01:26:36,149 --> 01:26:34,960
theremikahanks.com is everything else

2786
01:26:37,510 --> 01:26:36,159
that i do so

2787
01:26:40,310 --> 01:26:37,520
you know just check me out online love

2788
01:26:42,390 --> 01:26:40,320
to hear from people awesome and playing

2789
01:26:45,110 --> 01:26:42,400
it like a true researcher author

2790
01:26:46,149 --> 01:26:45,120
never give a date of when a book is

2791
01:26:48,550 --> 01:26:46,159
coming out because

2792
01:26:50,390 --> 01:26:48,560
that is going to change inevitably but

2793
01:26:51,830 --> 01:26:50,400
um hey man i couldn't agree more with

2794
01:26:53,669 --> 01:26:51,840
you there's been a lot of chatter and

2795
01:26:55,990 --> 01:26:53,679
talk in the past few weeks about

2796
01:26:58,629 --> 01:26:56,000
huge bombshells are about to drop and

2797
01:27:00,550 --> 01:26:58,639
hey i blame james fox who on my show

2798
01:27:03,510 --> 01:27:00,560
last week teased something

2799
01:27:05,030 --> 01:27:03,520
that got the ufo twitter world really

2800
01:27:06,709 --> 01:27:05,040
going and he's been doing this on

2801
01:27:07,430 --> 01:27:06,719
several other shows so james if you're

2802
01:27:08,950 --> 01:27:07,440
watching

2803
01:27:10,870 --> 01:27:08,960
and listening we blame you for the

2804
01:27:13,189 --> 01:27:10,880
latest bombshells

2805
01:27:13,990 --> 01:27:13,199
uh announcements but um i would have to

2806
01:27:15,990 --> 01:27:14,000
agree i think

2807
01:27:17,910 --> 01:27:16,000
if we keep playing these things up and

2808
01:27:19,350 --> 01:27:17,920
saying this next big thing from the new

2809
01:27:20,629 --> 01:27:19,360
york times is going to shatter

2810
01:27:23,510 --> 01:27:20,639
everyone's reality

2811
01:27:23,830 --> 01:27:23,520
um we're always going to be let down i

2812
01:27:26,550 --> 01:27:23,840
think

2813
01:27:27,030 --> 01:27:26,560
again slow and steady wins the race the

2814
01:27:29,430 --> 01:27:27,040
more

2815
01:27:31,030 --> 01:27:29,440
small discoveries we make with all this

2816
01:27:33,030 --> 01:27:31,040
the better we're never going to get that

2817
01:27:36,390 --> 01:27:33,040
one big bomb that's gonna

2818
01:27:38,629 --> 01:27:36,400
change the world unless the phenomena

2819
01:27:39,990 --> 01:27:38,639
wants to do that in my personal opinion

2820
01:27:43,430 --> 01:27:40,000
i do think we're on

2821
01:27:44,709 --> 01:27:43,440
it or they or whatever's timetable in my

2822
01:27:46,229 --> 01:27:44,719
personal opinion so

2823
01:27:48,870 --> 01:27:46,239
i'm glad to hear you say that to be

2824
01:27:50,950 --> 01:27:48,880
honest absolutely and if and when that

2825
01:27:51,510 --> 01:27:50,960
happens if it happens it will be a new

2826
01:27:54,470 --> 01:27:51,520
world

2827
01:27:56,470 --> 01:27:54,480
from the one that we know today exactly

2828
01:27:58,709 --> 01:27:56,480
yep yep and like you said i think the

2829
01:28:00,229 --> 01:27:58,719
number one word we can leave with

2830
01:28:01,750 --> 01:28:00,239
uh with everything going on in the world

2831
01:28:04,870 --> 01:28:01,760
right now is hope uh

2832
01:28:06,950 --> 01:28:04,880
for change uh for for healing and

2833
01:28:08,950 --> 01:28:06,960
uh for new discoveries and revelations

2834
01:28:10,470 --> 01:28:08,960
and i think that's what you do best

2835
01:28:12,629 --> 01:28:10,480
and all the other people out there

2836
01:28:15,030 --> 01:28:12,639
watching and listening um

2837
01:28:16,870 --> 01:28:15,040
think for yourself do your own research

2838
01:28:19,590 --> 01:28:16,880
like micah has done tonight

2839
01:28:20,390 --> 01:28:19,600
on the pentagon memorandum and uh keep

2840
01:28:22,550 --> 01:28:20,400
looking up so

2841
01:28:24,790 --> 01:28:22,560
brother as always i gotta thank you for

2842
01:28:26,390 --> 01:28:24,800
coming on somewhere in the skies today

2843
01:28:27,990 --> 01:28:26,400
yeah next time i owe you one you gotta

2844
01:28:30,229 --> 01:28:28,000
come on my show too okay so

2845
01:28:31,669 --> 01:28:30,239
thank you for everything you do every

2846
01:28:32,870 --> 01:28:31,679
week i hear from people did you hear

2847
01:28:34,950 --> 01:28:32,880
ryan's show about this

2848
01:28:36,950 --> 01:28:34,960
ryan's show about that i do a show about

2849
01:28:38,070 --> 01:28:36,960
ufo hackers and this kid he emails me

2850
01:28:39,669 --> 01:28:38,080
and says did you see the show i did

2851
01:28:40,390 --> 01:28:39,679
about this with a whole different angle

2852
01:28:42,070 --> 01:28:40,400
on it

2853
01:28:43,910 --> 01:28:42,080
again you know so the more we're able to

2854
01:28:45,350 --> 01:28:43,920
do together in my opinion the better and

2855
01:28:46,950 --> 01:28:45,360
i always appreciate it and enjoy the